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speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. Hello

1:27

there. You are, of course, listening

1:29

to After Dark. And today we're

1:31

focusing on the case of Lizzie

1:33

Borden, one of the most famous

1:36

murderers in American history. June

1:38

5th, 1893. We're in New Bedford, Massachusetts, standing

1:40

in the corner of a

1:45

crowded courtroom. We've had to jostle our way in. It's

1:47

loud in here. Men and women are

1:52

discussing the case with a kind of

1:54

electric excitement. The case is about

1:56

to be heard. It's a case of a man and a

1:58

woman. There's

2:01

debate. The man

2:03

behind us waves his hand enthusiastically in

2:06

the air, as though trying

2:08

to hammer home his point. His

2:11

friend shakes his head in disagreement. The

2:14

jury, two rows of near-identical

2:16

men in three-piece suits, their

2:18

faces dressed with whiskers and

2:20

moustaches, and their waists

2:22

glinting with pocket-watches, look

2:25

grim, and so they should, for

2:28

the task is not an easy

2:30

one. They must decide

2:33

on the guilt, or innocence,

2:35

of a young woman in a case

2:38

so ghastly the details

2:40

of it make everyone, from

2:43

factory workers to magistrates in the

2:45

industrial town where it happened, blush

2:49

in horror. Quite suddenly,

2:51

a hush falls in the

2:53

room. A door

2:55

swings loudly open, and through

2:57

it comes the accused herself.

3:00

She is small and neat,

3:02

dressed in black, with

3:05

an elegant pin fastened high at

3:07

her throat. In her

3:09

hand she carries a bouquet of

3:11

fresh flowers, the petals

3:13

trembling slightly as she steps up

3:15

to the dock to

3:17

take her place. Over

3:20

the next few days, this

3:22

apparently demure, respectable woman will

3:25

be fighting for her life. The

3:28

question is, did she take

3:30

those of her closest family

3:33

away from them? This

3:45

is After Dark. I'm

4:00

Anthony. And I'm Maddie. And

4:02

today we are delving into one of

4:04

the most notorious cases, as I said

4:06

at the outset, in American history. It's

4:09

a locked room mystery, a story of

4:11

horrible violence, and then at its heart,

4:14

a seemingly glamorous,

4:16

if that's the right word, but

4:18

strange young woman. It is, of course,

4:20

the case of Lizzie Borden. You

4:23

might remember that in June we had an

4:25

episode about the murder trial of Polly Bedine,

4:27

AKA the Witch of New York. And that's

4:29

a fascinating case too. And our guest was

4:32

Alex Hortus. And he told us about Polly's

4:34

trial and how sensational

4:36

it was until it was

4:38

eclipsed by Lizzie Borden. So this

4:40

is going to be really interesting. And go

4:43

back and listen to that Polly Bedine case

4:45

if you haven't already heard it, because it

4:47

really is fascinating. And it sets up the

4:49

context for what's about to unfold in the

4:51

Lizzie Borden case. So speaking of context, Maddie,

4:53

set the scene for us. I believe we are in 1892,

4:55

America in 1892. We

4:59

are indeed. I got really carried away researching

5:02

this year. Loads happened. But

5:04

it's now become a bit of a running joke

5:06

in my household. I got so excited that I

5:08

started telling my husband about all the things that

5:10

happened in 1892. But

5:12

I led with the fact that the

5:14

first escalator was installed that year in Coney

5:17

Island. And he laughed at me

5:19

so much. And now anything that I say

5:21

is interesting. He says, was it as interesting

5:23

as the escalator situation in 1892? That

5:27

is also a terrible story. I am with

5:29

Matt on this. Escalators do

5:31

not make for the first lead. You should

5:33

have picked something else. I mean, the first fingerprint

5:35

bureau is in my notes. That comes next. That's

5:37

way better. I know. It really is.

5:40

It really is. So I'm sorry to escalate funds out there, but that

5:42

was quite a boring opening. Yeah. So there's

5:44

so much that changes early on in

5:47

the final decade of the 19th century.

5:50

The world is changing hugely. So

5:52

we do have the first escalators

5:54

at Coney Island. We've also got

5:57

Rudolf Diesel patenting his engine. got,

6:00

as you say, the first fingerprinting bureau

6:02

opens in Buenos Aires, which of course,

6:05

we're not going to see Buenos Aires in

6:07

the story, but interesting to think about these

6:09

advances in policing taking place. That's amazing, yeah.

6:11

Not necessarily in America. In the

6:13

world of sport, something you and I

6:16

obviously are very passionate about, Liverpool

6:18

Football Club is founded and in the

6:21

US, the first basketball game is played

6:23

in public. And for anyone who didn't

6:25

know, it's at the YMCA and it's

6:27

played between its students and the faculty

6:29

there. There's lots of

6:32

social change happening. So Yale

6:34

University admits its first woman

6:36

to graduate school there. And

6:39

in Louisiana, a mixed race man

6:41

called Homer Plessy is arrested

6:43

for sitting in a whites-only train

6:45

carriage in protest of, of course,

6:47

racial segregation, which is absolutely fascinating

6:49

and quite early on, I would

6:52

say. In terms of

6:54

culture and politics, we've got the

6:56

first ever film studios being set

6:58

up. Have a guess where you think they

7:00

would be without looking at the notes in front of you. I

7:04

mean, you would imagine there are going to be LA, I guess.

7:07

So they're in Melbourne, in Australia, interestingly. Yeah, I

7:09

did not know that. Well, this is quite a

7:11

big film industry in Melbourne, actually, even now or

7:13

in Australia, at least. In

7:15

London, we get the first Sherlock Holmes adventure

7:18

published in The Strand Magazine. Also

7:20

in London, we've got the general election. We

7:22

have two elections taking place in this year,

7:24

a little bit like this

7:26

year, in fact, the year we're currently

7:29

living in. We've got the British general

7:31

election and it's a conservative and liberal

7:33

unionist coalition that loses its majority and

7:36

a liberal government comes in. So

7:38

not a terribly dissimilar situation to

7:40

the one that we find ourselves

7:42

in now. And in

7:44

the US, there's a presidential election and this

7:46

is really interesting. So, Rover Cleveland

7:48

comes back into office for a second

7:50

term but they're not backed about terms

7:53

and he's the only president thus far

7:55

to serve two

7:57

non-consecutive terms, of course, Donald Trump. Trump

7:59

would be the second if he is

8:01

elected later this year. So there's

8:04

a lot of parallels to our own time.

8:06

It's a feeling of in

8:08

the 1890s, lots of change is

8:10

happening. The recognizable 20th century is

8:12

about to come into being. And

8:15

this is the setting in which we

8:17

find Lizzie Borden on trial for a

8:20

series of very brutal murders. We

8:22

have that context going on in

8:24

the background. What's happening more specifically

8:26

on the ground in Massachusetts? So

8:29

this is where these murders unfold. So for

8:31

me, if I think about Massachusetts, I think

8:33

New England, I think at

8:36

this point in time, relatively

8:38

well to do, quite industrial.

8:41

And yet with this very strong backbone

8:43

of tradition and being very

8:46

much part of the early colonies, but give

8:48

us a little bit more detail. Sure.

8:51

So we're in Full River, Massachusetts, which

8:53

is an East Coast city in Bristol

8:55

County. It's a really

8:57

wealthy place. It's very prosperous. And

8:59

there's a lot of opportunity here

9:01

for social mobility, which is gonna

9:03

be important to our story. I

9:06

was just reading about Full River in

9:08

the 19th century and something I

9:10

came across. Now I love a weird

9:12

archeological discovery and it was

9:15

famous in the time that Lizzie Borden was

9:17

living there. This city was famous for her

9:20

discovery that had actually happened several

9:22

decades earlier in the 1830s of

9:25

a skeleton that was found on

9:27

the riverbank there dressed in

9:29

armor. It's buried with metal objects,

9:31

some tree bark, and some clothing

9:34

that it's wearing and that's separate.

9:37

And nobody could work out if this was

9:39

the burial of a Native American or possibly

9:41

an early colonist. It seemed to be already

9:43

centuries old. And it sort

9:45

of became the thing that the town

9:47

was known for, which is just a

9:49

lovely little detail. And maybe

9:51

that's a whole episode in and of itself. But

9:53

certainly by the 1890s, it

9:56

is also really a center for industry. So

9:58

we've got print works, we've got... said textile

10:01

factories, we've also got ironworks, the

10:03

shipping, the river comes in there so we've got

10:06

we've got shipping, transporting coal,

10:08

transporting cotton, and there's

10:10

a railroad that's now connecting Fall River

10:12

to other towns and cities further inland.

10:14

So this is the

10:17

really exciting place, it's something

10:19

that's changing very rapidly and

10:22

Lizzie's family are part

10:25

of this new emerging

10:27

prosperous upper middle class.

10:30

And we're going to talk a little bit about

10:32

who her family are but first of all I

10:34

want you to describe the photograph that we have

10:36

of the family home and the thing that I

10:39

want to say about this before you do that

10:41

is that the house itself was in a

10:44

fairly affluent part of Fall River

10:46

but it wasn't in the

10:48

most after one place which was an area called

10:50

The Hill which was literally the houses on The

10:52

Hill that could look down on everyone else and

10:55

I want listeners to bear that in mind because that is

10:57

going to become an important aspect of

10:59

this story later on but for now Anthony

11:01

tell us what we're looking at in this

11:03

picture. Right so we're looking

11:06

at a in many ways a

11:08

typical well-to-do New England house from

11:10

potentially the end of the 18th

11:12

century if not the beginning of

11:14

the 19th it

11:16

is three stories high

11:19

ground floor first floor and a

11:22

top floor which looks to be in

11:24

the eaves essentially there's a chimney jutting

11:26

out of the top it is surrounded

11:28

by picket fences all very idyllic I

11:30

suppose in one sense although it does

11:32

very much look like it's in an

11:35

urban or a suburban setting there are

11:37

low gates windows down the side of

11:40

the house as well it looks like

11:43

very traditional almost 19th century

11:46

church building if I didn't know

11:48

any better but obviously this is

11:50

domestic dwelling yeah wood frame and

11:52

it's clad and it's got

11:54

a very nice door over it but looks very

11:56

respectable as you say not a mansion but certainly

11:59

a respect. respectable house. Nothing bizarrely

12:02

unusual about it, I suppose, is worth saying.

12:04

It seems like a very run-of-the-mill

12:06

domestic setting in many ways. Yeah,

12:09

it absolutely is. It's just that

12:11

it's an affluent middle-class home in

12:13

an affluent middle-class city in

12:15

a part of America that is changing

12:17

shape in terms of the wealth,

12:19

in terms of the industry, but

12:22

there's nothing out of the ordinary here. So

12:24

let's go inside. If we were

12:26

to walk into this house, we would meet, first

12:29

of all, Andrew Jackson Borden. This is

12:31

the father of the household. He

12:33

is born in 1822. He is

12:35

of English and Welsh descent. Interestingly,

12:39

and this speaks very much to the times,

12:41

he grew up in poverty, but by

12:43

the time we meet him as a grown

12:46

man and as father to the

12:48

notorious Lizzie Borden, he is a

12:50

property developer. He's also the director

12:53

of several textile mills in

12:55

the city, and he is, importantly,

12:58

president of the Union Savings Bank. His

13:00

estimated worth in 1892 is $300,000, which

13:02

is about $10

13:07

million in 2024. So this is

13:09

very much a self-made man. This

13:12

is the American dream in

13:14

action here. Next, we

13:16

have Lizzie's stepmother. This

13:18

is a woman called

13:20

Abby Borden. She is born in

13:24

1828, so she's just a little bit

13:26

younger than Andrew. She has

13:29

a polite,

13:32

amicable relationship with her stepdaughter

13:34

Lizzie, but there's no

13:36

warmth there. It's quite a distant relationship.

13:38

There is a little bit of tension.

13:41

There's this idea that Lizzie

13:43

and her sister that I'll talk about in a minute

13:46

have, that Abby has married

13:48

their father, Andrew, for his

13:50

money. So money is an

13:53

issue, this family. Andrew

13:56

obviously protects his wealth

13:58

and covets more. and more,

14:01

possibly because of the background that he's come from. And

14:04

Abby has seen as someone who's maybe taken

14:06

advantage of that. Next we have

14:08

Lizzie's sister, called Emma Borden. She's

14:10

born in 1851. She's

14:13

the older sister and she's

14:16

incredibly religious. So she teaches

14:18

at the local Sunday school.

14:21

She's a treasurer for the

14:23

Christian Endeavour Society and a

14:25

member of the Women's Christian

14:28

Temperance Movement. I'm not

14:30

going to lie, she doesn't sound like

14:32

wildly good fun. But

14:34

her and Lizzie have a relatively close

14:38

relationship and certainly in the

14:40

context of Fall River in

14:42

the 1890s they are respectable

14:45

women. They are participating in

14:47

their respectable Christian community. Also

14:50

living in the household we have one

14:52

servant, Bridget Sullivan, who is an immigrant

14:54

to the US from Ireland. Although she's

14:57

called Bridget, the family call her Maggie.

14:59

So we will be calling her Maggie

15:01

from now on. She's 25 years old

15:03

and as far as I could tell

15:05

trying to read up on this case,

15:08

she's been with the family for a relatively

15:11

long time. So she's very familiar

15:13

with everyone who she's employed by

15:15

and has an existing relationship with

15:17

the two girls Lizzie and Emma.

15:20

What's interesting about discovering a little

15:23

bit more now about the family is that it

15:25

sounds to me like Andrew, the

15:27

dad, is in a position to

15:29

actually be living better

15:31

than they are. Not that there's anything wrong with

15:33

how they're living, but if he's worth 10 million

15:36

dollars in today's money and

15:39

this house is nowhere near, he's not at the end

15:41

of his means by any stretch at all. So in

15:43

a way he outwardly

15:46

at least appears to be living quite

15:48

frugally. Does that translate within the household

15:51

structure itself or is he spending, often

15:53

with these cases you see people are spending money frivolously

15:56

and therefore that's putting tension in the house. case

16:00

in this particular murder case. You're

16:02

absolutely correct. It is the other way around. He's

16:05

strangely frugal. He doesn't like to spend

16:07

money. And even though the area that

16:09

they live in has these quite

16:11

well to do homes and their home,

16:13

at least on the outside, looks very

16:15

respectable inside, there is no indoor plumbing

16:18

and there are no luxuries compared to

16:20

the domestic setups of the people around

16:22

them. So he's someone who

16:25

has built up this wealth, but doesn't

16:27

necessarily like to spend it. One thing

16:29

that he does do, which seems

16:32

to create some tension amongst

16:34

the family members is that he, as

16:36

we said, he's a landlord in the city and he

16:39

owns lots and lots of properties that he rents out

16:41

mostly to people working in the factories. He

16:43

actually gifts some of these

16:46

properties to members of

16:48

Abby's family, the stepmother's family. And

16:51

there's some tension there maybe between

16:53

the daughters and their stepmother in

16:55

that their inheritance seems to be

16:57

being diluted and given away to

17:00

this new side of the family

17:02

that's married into the wealth. So

17:04

there's already some problems and those

17:07

are not the only issues. So we

17:09

know, for example, that even though they

17:11

all live under the same roof, Andrew eats

17:13

separately with his wife and his two

17:15

daughters who, let's not forget, are grown

17:17

adults themselves, don't eat at the table

17:20

with them, which is potentially a little

17:22

bit odd. I can understand maybe children

17:24

not eating with their parents in this

17:27

period. And certainly that would be the case earlier

17:29

on for wealthier families. It

17:32

feels a bit strange not to do that with

17:35

adult daughters. The other thing to

17:37

say is that he has some

17:39

quite strange behaviours. So in the

17:41

months before these murders take place,

17:43

and we're going to get into them in a

17:45

little bit, Andrew

17:48

decides to go outside to the

17:50

yard at the back of the house

17:52

where Lizzie has built a

17:54

wooden roost for some pigeons that she

17:56

is just keeping as

17:58

pets. And he takes

18:01

a hatchet to the roost,

18:03

he chops it up, and he actually kills the

18:06

pigeons that are in it. Unclear

18:08

why, but of course Lizzie is

18:10

very, very, very upset by this. So

18:13

there's this sort of strange

18:16

violence in the household actually.

18:19

And I suppose from this

18:21

distance and perspective we could maybe speculate

18:23

that Andrew is someone who likes to

18:26

be in control of his money, of

18:28

his domestic setup, of the women who

18:30

live in his household. So

18:32

that's something to bear in mind. This

18:34

tension only increases in the early 1890s

18:37

and Emma and Lizzie go

18:39

away from the house on

18:41

extended trips. They travel quite far

18:44

sometimes, but actually often they are

18:46

staying in Fall River itself, in

18:49

other properties, in hotels, they're renting rooms out, they're trying

18:51

to get out of the domestic setup

18:53

that they have with their father. And

18:55

this becomes a routine thing for them,

18:58

which again, may be raising a bit

19:00

of a red flag. There are

19:02

some other people to consider before we

19:04

get on to the crimes that are about to

19:06

be committed in this house. A

19:08

few days before the murders take

19:11

place, Lizzie and Emma's maternal

19:13

uncle, so this is the brother of

19:15

their mother who is dead and not

19:17

in the picture anymore, their

19:19

maternal uncle, a man called John

19:21

Vinica Morse, visits

19:23

Andrew, so his ex-brother-in-law,

19:27

to discuss the sale of the house

19:29

that his sister used to live in.

19:32

I think when she had the children, this

19:34

is many years ago now, this seems to

19:36

be the source of an argument between the

19:38

men because from what I can gather, Morse

19:42

wants that property back. His

19:44

sister lived there, his nieces possibly grew up

19:46

there, and he feels that he and his

19:48

family have a claim on it that Andrew

19:50

does not. So there is an argument

19:53

and then Morse leaves. This is a few

19:55

days before the murders. Now, around

19:58

the same time as this... this, something

20:01

else happens, which is highly suspect. And

20:03

that is that every single member of

20:05

the family living in that house starts

20:08

to become violently ill.

20:11

They have stomach cramps, they're throwing

20:13

up, they're very, very unwell. And

20:16

a family friend later speculates

20:18

that it's because of some gone off mutton

20:20

that's been left on the stove for too

20:22

long and they've just given themselves food poisoning.

20:25

But in the days leading up to the murders, Ruby

20:28

the stepmother is overheard saying

20:31

that she thinks she's been poisoned.

20:34

And the reason why she says this is

20:36

because Andrew, the father, as

20:39

we say, he's a landlord, he's involved

20:41

in the bank, he's involved in

20:43

the factories, he's a deeply unpopular figure

20:45

in a town where the wealth and

20:47

social divide is, I think

20:49

it's fair to say, deepening in a lot

20:51

of ways. And she is worried that someone

20:53

external to the household is actually

20:56

trying to assassinate them. Have

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22:58

So we're in this middle

23:03

class, if not upper middle class

23:05

neighborhood. There is an air of respectability, but

23:07

there are some tensions boiling beneath the surface.

23:10

Tensions without the house of how popular Andrew Mayer

23:12

may not be and then tensions

23:14

within the house. And it's around this point that I

23:16

think those tensions

23:18

start to boil over. On

23:22

the morning of Thursday,

23:26

the 4th of August, 1892, everything seemed normal in

23:30

the Borden household. Lizzie and Emma's uncle,

23:34

Morse, who had slept there the night before,

23:36

rose from the guest bedroom and went

23:38

downstairs to breakfast with Andrew Borden and his

23:40

wife, Abby. Maggie, the

23:42

maid, served the family as usual. After

23:47

they finished eating, Andrew and Morse

23:50

continued to chat. They were both

23:52

very friendly. While

23:54

Abby, conscious of the used bedroom upstairs,

23:58

was still in bed. went

24:01

up to clean it.

24:03

At 8.48am, Morse left the

24:05

house, heading out to

24:08

visit Emma, Lizzie's sister, in

24:10

Fall River. Fifteen minutes

24:13

or so later, Andrew

24:15

followed him out the door, heading into

24:17

the street for his morning walk. When

24:21

Andrew returned, at around

24:23

10.30, the door to his

24:25

home was locked. He

24:28

tried the key, but it did

24:30

not budge, as though the whole

24:32

thing had been jammed shut. He

24:35

called for assistance and from within,

24:37

Maggie appeared to help him. She

24:41

would later describe hearing Lizzie

24:43

laugh at the scene from

24:45

the top of the stairs,

24:48

something Lizzie herself would deny.

24:51

Maggie helped her master to remove his

24:53

boots and fetched his slippers, watching

24:56

him retire to the parlour. He

24:58

was tired. They all were.

25:00

The mysterious sickness that had struck

25:03

them down in the days before

25:05

had taken their energy. Andrew

25:08

fell asleep on the couch. Maggie,

25:11

seizing the opportunity, retired to her

25:13

own room now, climbing the stairs

25:15

to the attic and lying down

25:17

on her bed there. Her

25:20

eyes slowly closed. The

25:24

peace would not last. At

25:27

11.10, Maggie awoke to

25:30

hear Lizzie shouting downstairs. Come

25:33

quick. Father's dead. Somebody's come

25:35

in and killed him. The

25:39

next few moments were chaos. Across

25:42

the street, the family's doctor, Dr

25:44

Seabury Bowen, heard the

25:46

screaming and rushed medical bag in

25:48

hand to the scene. What

25:50

he saw next, he would

25:52

later recount in court. I

25:56

saw the form of Mr Borden lying on the

25:58

lounge at the left of the sitting room. room

26:00

door. His face was

26:02

very badly cut, apparently with a

26:04

sharp instrument. His face was

26:06

covered with blood. I

26:09

felt his pulse and satisfied myself he was

26:11

dead. Glanced about the room

26:13

and saw there was nothing disturbed, neither

26:15

the furniture nor anything at all. Mr.

26:18

Borden was lying with his face toward

26:21

the south on his right side, and

26:23

apparently at ease, as if asleep. His

26:26

face was hardly to be recognized by one

26:28

who knew him. I

26:30

made no other examination at the time except

26:32

to feel his pulse. Miss Lizzie

26:34

had followed me partway through the dining

26:36

room, and as I went back to

26:38

the kitchen, I asked her if she

26:41

had seen anyone. She said, I have

26:43

not. Then I asked her, where

26:45

have you been? She replied, in

26:47

the barn looking for some iron. She

26:50

said she was afraid her father had

26:52

had trouble with the tenants, and she

26:54

had overheard loud conversations several times recently.

26:58

I asked for a sheet to cover up Mr. Borden.

27:00

Bridget brought me one. Then

27:02

Miss Lizzie asked me to telegraph to

27:05

her sister Emma, and I

27:07

went to the telegraph office. Nothing

27:09

had been said about Mrs. Borden until

27:11

now, but before I went to

27:13

send the telegram, the question was asked, where

27:16

is Mrs. Borden? And the answer,

27:18

from Miss Lizzie I think, but I am

27:21

not certain, was that Mrs. Borden

27:23

had received a note that morning to visit

27:25

a sick friend and had gone out. On

27:28

leaving the house I met Officer Allen.

27:30

On my return from the telegraph office,

27:32

I met Mrs. Churchill, who said, they

27:34

have found Mrs. Borden. I

27:37

asked, where? And she replied, upstairs

27:39

in the front room. I

27:41

went up the front stairs and stopped a moment at

27:43

the door of the guest room. At

27:46

that point I looked over the bed and

27:48

saw the prostrate form of Mrs. Borden. I

27:50

was standing directly in the door. I

27:53

went round to the front of the bed and placed my

27:55

hand on her head. I found

27:57

there were wounds. Then I

27:59

thought, felt her pulse. She

28:01

was dead. Quite

28:09

the scene. I love

28:11

the detail that Lizzie stepped outside

28:13

to get iron. Like,

28:15

what? Just a

28:17

terrible alibi. Okay,

28:21

so we know from the

28:23

medical report that follows that

28:26

Mrs Borden, Abby Borden, probably

28:28

died first, around

28:30

10.30 in the

28:32

morning, and that Andrew, the father,

28:35

died at around 11. So he

28:37

was killed afterwards. And we also

28:39

know that each of them was bludgeoned

28:42

and hacked with

28:44

some kind of axe or a

28:47

hatchet. The other

28:49

thing that's really important to say is that,

28:52

unlike Andrew, who was possibly still

28:54

asleep on the couch when he

28:56

was killed, when that first blow

28:58

landed, Abby upstairs, Mrs

29:01

Borden, was thought to be

29:03

facing her attacker, indicating

29:05

perhaps that she knew them, that she

29:07

was speaking face to face with them

29:09

when she was first hit, and

29:12

that she falls then face first on the

29:14

floor where she is the victim

29:16

of a more sustained attack. So

29:19

it's very, very brutal. It's very

29:21

intimate in this family space.

29:24

And we know from the testimonies

29:27

of different people, including

29:29

the people inside the house who are not

29:31

dead, Lizzie and Maggie the

29:33

servant, that Maggie is upstairs on her

29:35

bed, and Lizzie is supposedly

29:38

in the yard. She,

29:41

at some point, according to Maggie, might be at

29:43

the top of the stairs. She

29:45

is the one, however, it's important to remember that,

29:47

raises the alarm, she's the one that calls

29:49

Maggie from the bedroom and says, somebody's

29:52

come in, father's dead. And

29:55

none of them seem to realize that Abby is

29:57

dead upstairs. Two, and the

29:59

last detail... that I think we need to take from

30:01

this is that when the doctor

30:03

comes into the household and

30:05

asks where Abby is, it's

30:08

Lizzie who says she's not here,

30:10

she's gone out. For me, and there

30:12

must be some other theories that we're

30:14

about to meet with here, but for

30:16

me, it seems really plain where the

30:18

suspicion would be directed. It doesn't scream

30:21

at all of innocence to me that

30:23

Lizzie is the first person to discover,

30:25

let's say, her father. I can

30:28

imagine the thinking being that, oh

30:30

well, if I discover him, I've raised

30:32

the alarm. But mind you, at

30:35

the same time, there's no account here of Lizzie being

30:37

covered in blood, and surely she would have had to

30:39

have been covered in blood if these attacks were as

30:41

brutal as they've been described. Yes, that is

30:43

a really crucial detail, and we will get

30:46

to that. Before we shine

30:48

the light on Lizzie, because I think,

30:50

I agree, she is the obvious suspect,

30:53

I think we need to run through some of

30:56

the theories that are put forward by

30:58

the police at this early stage, because

31:00

let's remember, Lizzie is

31:02

the daughter of a now

31:04

middle class banker, landlord, factory

31:06

owner. She's a respectable

31:08

woman, and she's never going

31:10

to be their first port of call. They

31:13

have to exhaust all the other avenues first. The

31:15

most obvious, I suppose, is that

31:17

there might be an intruder. Initially,

31:21

and I think this is sadly predictable

31:23

for this period, or indeed most

31:25

of history, that

31:27

the authorities begin to

31:29

look beyond the household itself at

31:31

the poorest and the most marginalised

31:34

in the community. They round

31:36

up people living on the

31:38

streets, they round up known criminals,

31:40

and they even look at lots

31:42

of Andrew's tenants across the city.

31:44

Remember, just a call back

31:46

to Abby's fear that

31:49

maybe someone renting off them and

31:51

disgruntled in some way had poisoned

31:53

them. Maggie absolutely repeats that information

31:55

to the police, so it seems

31:57

like that might be, at least

31:59

initially, viable threat.

32:02

And there is this huge fear

32:04

at the time of crossing the threshold,

32:07

of an outsider crossing your domestic threshold.

32:09

The domestic threshold having become more precious

32:11

than it ever was before and this

32:14

intimate space being violated is seen

32:16

as one of the most violent

32:18

acts that can occur and it's

32:21

always seen that people

32:23

from the lower classes can intrude

32:25

into these more polite spaces. So

32:28

that would be a very, very tropey

32:30

trope, if that makes sense. So

32:32

yeah, I'm not surprised that that comes up as

32:35

a theory. It's an interesting one, but I don't

32:37

see any proof of it anywhere. But yeah, anyone

32:39

else? Who else did they turn their attention towards?

32:42

So the attention then turns to the family.

32:44

If it wasn't someone from outside, and

32:46

I agree that that it's a sort of obvious fear

32:49

in that time period, right? Especially when, I suppose,

32:52

when people are earning huge amounts of

32:55

money or making huge wealth off industry

32:57

and there's a sense of their

32:59

property being the most valuable and you don't want anyone

33:02

to try and come and take it or violate it

33:04

in any way. So you can see why that's the

33:06

initial claim. But yes, there is

33:09

attention turned to the

33:11

family themselves, the more intimate acquaintances

33:13

of Andrew and Abby who are

33:15

dead. One

33:18

thing police do find in an initial

33:20

search of the house is the

33:22

hatchet. It's in the basement.

33:24

Now this is probably the hatchet that was

33:27

used by Andrew to break up

33:29

the roost, the coop for the pigeons in

33:31

the yard. So we know it's

33:33

in use in the household anyway. It would

33:36

have been used to chop up firewood, possibly

33:38

for protection, but it's more a household

33:40

tool than a weapon necessarily. But

33:43

it is found in the basement

33:45

and the wooden handle has been

33:47

broken clean off as though the

33:50

person using it last wielded

33:52

it with enormous force, which

33:55

is pretty, pretty chilling. Well,

33:57

we know that Andrew did. Do we? Is

34:00

the hatchet covered in blood? Is that how we know?

34:02

Or is it just assumed that this is the hatchet?

34:04

Because Andrew had used that with force

34:07

against the chicken coop, that sounds like it was a pretty

34:09

maniacal action on his behalf. Yeah, and he

34:11

kills the pigeons. So even if there was

34:14

blood on there, that could be the blood

34:16

of an animal very, very easily. The

34:18

other suspect that comes up is the

34:20

uncle, Uncle Morse, who had

34:22

been obviously staying the night before

34:25

in the house, but had been witness leaving

34:28

that morning and had been going off to

34:30

meet the sister, Emma, who was staying elsewhere.

34:33

We don't know if she's staying away because

34:35

of a recent argument with the family. Maybe

34:37

it's because everyone else in the household got

34:39

ill and she didn't and she wanted to

34:41

remove herself. Maybe she's visiting

34:43

friends. It's quite unclear. But she's

34:45

also held up briefly as a suspect, although

34:47

she seems to have alibi. There's one other

34:49

person that I want to mention really briefly

34:52

here. And this isn't a theory that I

34:54

spent particularly long looking into, but it's worth

34:56

mentioning that there is a possibility

34:58

that Andrew had an illegitimate

35:00

son from a different, a

35:02

completely separate relationship. And

35:05

there is some

35:07

speculation that this illegitimate son

35:09

wanted financial recognition from

35:11

his father and that that was

35:13

a source of argument. It's too

35:15

neat, isn't it? It's too neat

35:17

a theory. It feels

35:20

more fiction than it does reality. I was

35:22

just going to say that, yeah, it feels

35:24

like it would be on the stage in

35:26

the 19th century. That's like a theatrical plot.

35:29

But pretty soon, the authorities have

35:31

no choice but to turn to Lizzie

35:33

as the suspect. And interestingly,

35:35

they don't necessarily turn to Maggie in the

35:37

same way, which I find very

35:40

interesting and not necessarily how

35:42

you'd expect it to play out.

35:45

Though Lizzie claims to have been in the yard

35:47

outside the house the whole time. But

35:50

what strikes Maggie about that initial moment when

35:52

Lizzie raises the alarm and shouts for her

35:54

to come is that actually when she

35:56

stood over the body of her father and later when they

36:00

dead upstairs. Lizzie's quite

36:02

cold and actually almost a

36:04

little bit curious about the

36:06

injuries and she doesn't seem

36:08

particularly hysterical or disturbed

36:10

by what they're looking at. Of

36:12

course, we might today contribute

36:14

that to being that she's in shock. If

36:17

anyone's ever been in shock, they'll know that

36:19

your body shuts down to a certain extent

36:22

and you don't necessarily behave in a way

36:24

that you would be able to predict. Crucially

36:27

though, because of her social standing

36:29

and because it's her father who

36:31

is dead, the police don't really

36:33

search her and they also

36:35

don't search her bedroom. She

36:37

says when the police arrive that she's feeling

36:39

unwell, that she's so shocked by everything that

36:41

she needs to lie down. So, the

36:44

policeman in the house do a very

36:46

cursory head around the door just

36:48

checking that there aren't blood splatters up

36:50

the wall and they don't look at

36:52

anything beyond that, which of course

36:54

is, we would consider now to be

36:57

hugely remiss. But they think that

36:59

she is a vulnerable young woman, she's

37:01

had a great loss, she needs to

37:03

rest and recuperate. That

37:05

is then coupled with the

37:07

fact that when she's questioned by the police, she

37:11

acts in a way that's actually

37:13

quite snobbish and she really draws

37:15

on those social distinctions. Who is this?

37:18

Lizzie now is snobbish. This

37:20

is Lizzie, yeah. Something

37:22

to remember about the police force

37:24

in America generally in this period,

37:26

but specifically in Fall River, is

37:29

that they're made up almost primarily of

37:32

immigrants, specifically Irish immigrants,

37:35

which I suppose you could say

37:37

potentially that's why they don't necessarily

37:40

leap to the idea that

37:42

Maggie might have done it. Maybe there's some

37:44

solidarity there or maybe there's simply not the

37:46

prejudice that police who didn't have that background

37:48

wouldn't have brought to it. But when they

37:51

interview Lizzie, she absolutely

37:53

leans in to her

37:55

social superiority. She

37:58

acts in a way that's very similar. very

38:01

cold, very calm, she's very clear and

38:03

precise in the information she gives them,

38:06

but it does not take long for

38:09

that to start breaking down and

38:12

little mistakes in her testimony start to

38:14

creep in. So she claims, for example,

38:16

that Maggie was the one

38:18

who handed her a note from Abby, her stepmother,

38:21

saying Abby was going out to visit a sick friend.

38:24

But when Maggie's asked by the police about this,

38:26

she says that there never was a note

38:29

like that. So it's not looking great

38:32

for Lizzie already. And that's

38:34

where this testimony comes from, the doctor where

38:36

he said Lizzie had said that Abby

38:39

was gone out. So this is potentially...

38:41

Now, look, let's give her the benefit of the

38:43

doubt. You know, we said Maggie

38:46

was escaping a lot of attention here. Maybe

38:48

Maggie had got the note and

38:50

is now denying it. But there

38:52

is another crucial piece of evidence that comes

38:54

next that is quite damning for Lizzie, right?

38:57

Two pieces of really crucial evidence. The

39:00

first of these is that, and this seems

39:02

totally wild to me, Lizzie has tried

39:04

to buy poison the day

39:07

before from the local druggist. When

39:10

the police find this out, of course, they ask her

39:12

about it. And she claims that she

39:14

wanted to use the poison to clean

39:16

a fur coat. But

39:19

even by 19th century standards, this

39:21

wasn't really a method that anyone

39:23

used. And Maggie certainly

39:25

has never heard of this. Also,

39:27

it would most likely have been Maggie's

39:30

job to clean the clothes, not Lizzie

39:32

herself. So it's very, very

39:34

odd behaviour if this is true. And

39:36

so she's tried to buy this poison the day

39:38

before, but wasn't it the day before that the

39:40

family were, according to

39:43

Abby, that she felt the family had

39:45

all been potentially poisoned as well? It's

39:47

in the days, multiple days, leading up

39:50

to the deaths that they're unwell. But

39:53

I suppose there's a moment

39:55

of doubt that's introduced there into the minds

39:57

of the police investigating this. If

40:00

Lizzie was trying to buy poison the day before,

40:03

had she succeeded on other days? Had

40:05

she already dosed those people? Was she

40:07

giving them something that was already available

40:09

in the household? I'm thinking

40:11

something like rat poison, that kind of thing.

40:14

It's definitely where my mind is going with this,

40:16

yeah. Yeah, so is

40:18

it actually that Lizzie has already tried to

40:21

kill her family in the days leading to

40:23

this? These more brutal

40:25

physical murders. The next

40:28

completely damning thing that happens is that

40:30

two days after the killings, the

40:32

police of Hovkorst have taken the

40:34

bodies away from the house now, but Lizzie's still

40:37

here in the house with Maggie. She

40:39

has nowhere else to go, really, this is her home.

40:42

And neighbors that are

40:44

well-meaning keep popping in to check how

40:46

she's doing, and I suppose they're curious

40:48

as well. They want to see the

40:50

crime scene. News of this has already

40:52

spread all over Fall River, and

40:54

very soon it's gonna become an incredibly

40:56

famous case across America. One

40:58

of these neighbors comes into the

41:00

house, and she finds Lizzie in the kitchen,

41:03

tearing up a dress, and

41:06

putting the ripped parts of it into the

41:08

fire in the stove. And

41:10

of course the neighbor says to Lizzie, what's

41:13

that, what are you doing? And what's all

41:15

that red stuff on the dress? And

41:18

Lizzie says, oh no, no, no, don't

41:20

mind this. I was wearing this

41:22

dress and I brushed against some wet paint,

41:26

and it's not washing out, so I'm

41:28

just getting rid of it, and I'm going to burn

41:30

it. So for this to add

41:32

up then, if this is a clue,

41:35

and it appears to be, what would have

41:37

had to happen is that Lizzie is wearing

41:39

these clothes that she's now trying to rip

41:41

up when she kills

41:44

Abby, and then

41:46

her father, because Maggie's asleep. She

41:48

then takes time to go and change into

41:50

another outfit, so therefore she's not covered in

41:52

blood, and then she raises the

41:54

alarm, and she's hidden these clothes somewhere in the meantime,

41:57

the ones she was wearing when she committed the murder.

42:00

be the theory, and now she's going

42:02

back to try and destroy that evidence. And as you

42:04

say, they haven't checked her room, they haven't searched her

42:06

room at this point. So

42:08

I guess this certainly could add

42:10

up, right? The only thing that I find

42:12

strange about it is that so we have

42:14

the dress that is covered. Lizzie says, if

42:16

we take her at face value in red

42:18

paint, that she's brushed up against something. We

42:20

of course suspect that it's blood, but we

42:22

don't know that. But she's

42:24

destroying the evidence. Now, another

42:26

thing that the police find in the days afterwards when

42:28

they come back to the house and comb through it

42:31

again is a bucket of

42:33

rags that's been left in the

42:35

cellar. These are torn pieces

42:37

of material, and they are covered in

42:39

blood. Now when they find

42:41

these, of course they think these are the

42:43

rags that have helped clean up the crime

42:46

scene, clean up the murderer. And so they

42:48

assume that they're Lizzie's. She

42:50

says, no, no, no, these are the

42:53

rags that I use when I'm on my

42:55

period. They're covered in menstrual blood. And the

42:57

family doctor confirms that she is on her

43:00

period. On the surface, we've got the dress covered

43:02

in blood and some rags covered in blood hidden

43:04

in the same place. Don't forget in the basement

43:07

where the hatchet, the broken hatchet is. But

43:09

to me, those are the actions of two very different

43:11

people. If Lizzie is destroying

43:13

evidence on her dress, why would she

43:16

leave a bucket of bloody rags in

43:18

the basement? And why

43:20

would she have used multiple sheets

43:22

of fabric to clean herself, to

43:24

clean the crime scene? We

43:27

know that obviously in the 19th century,

43:29

there weren't the same sanitary products available that there

43:31

are today, and women did use rags in

43:34

the undergarments as a way to clean

43:36

themselves, to put inside their underwear. Is

43:39

that really what this bucket of rags is?

43:41

And of course, because

43:43

we've seen this in multiple

43:46

cases actually. I'm thinking back to, is

43:48

it the Sarah Malcolm case in the

43:50

early 18th century that we saw that

43:52

was exactly the same defence when people

43:54

found rags covered in blood, Sarah Malcolm

43:56

in that instance says, oh, no, no,

43:58

no, that's just my period. it's menstrual

44:00

blood. And we see it again and

44:02

again, and the effect on the men,

44:04

it's always men who are doing the prosecution, is often

44:07

to take a step back and say, oh, okay, don't want to

44:10

know anything about that, thanks, but we

44:12

won't take that any further. That's your

44:14

private business. That's ladies business, nothing to do

44:16

with us. And women

44:19

in the cases that we've looked at so far

44:21

have sometimes used that, I mean, it's ambiguous, but

44:23

I think they have used it almost as a

44:25

way to evade punishment, to

44:28

escape being prosecuted. But

44:30

in the case of Lizzie, I don't

44:32

know, she could still be cleaning the blood

44:34

of her father off her dress, but

44:37

those rags could be her period blood. That's

44:39

my instinct. I think the dress is something, I

44:41

think the rags are nothing got

44:43

to do with this case. Because as you say,

44:45

why would she leave them there? It doesn't really

44:48

add up. And then for

44:50

the doctor to confirm that she is

44:52

having her period, then that

44:55

to me seems like it's not really worth following

44:58

up because they're not going to be able to prove

45:00

anything about that blood, regardless of whose it is, given

45:02

the context of the time that this is happening in.

45:05

And the fact that, as you say, the rags,

45:07

rather than a swathe of material that

45:09

was used to clean up, but also, I mean,

45:12

how bloody were the crime scenes? Was

45:14

there a clean up job done? That

45:17

would have been relatively obvious, I would have thought. So

45:19

it appears to me that these will have been what

45:22

she says they are, and that's possibly why the police

45:25

don't pursue it any further. Well,

45:27

they are about to pursue it further. She

45:29

is going to be arrested. So on

45:32

August 11, several days

45:34

after the murders, Lizzie is arrested

45:37

for murder, although it will

45:39

take, I think, a year, almost a year,

45:41

for the trial to come to fruition. What's

45:44

so interesting in this initial

45:46

moment of the arrest is that

45:48

opinion about whether or not Lizzie did

45:50

it is absolutely split. It

45:52

splits the city into two camps.

45:54

On the one hand, we've

45:57

got people who think she did it, and interestingly, most

45:59

of the people who've fall into that camp are

46:01

factory workers, are people in the lower

46:04

and working classes who see

46:06

her and her father and everything that she

46:08

stands for as their natural

46:10

enemy. And on

46:13

the other hand we've got the people who believe

46:15

that she's innocent and among those are the

46:17

church groups that her and her sister were

46:19

part of and interestingly

46:22

suffragist societies. Societies

46:24

for the advancement and equality

46:27

of women rally to

46:29

support her and so by

46:31

the time it gets to trial the

46:33

case is already this notorious thing but

46:36

we're really no closer to knowing whether or

46:38

not she did it and it's that ambiguity

46:40

that people cannot get enough of. By

46:46

the first day of Lizzie Borden's trial

46:48

for murder interest in the

46:50

case was booming. Newspaper

46:53

presses ran hot with copy

46:55

reporting on events and speculating

46:57

not only on motive but

47:00

on the outcome of the courtroom

47:02

and crowds notable for the high

47:04

numbers of women among them blocked

47:07

to see the drama unfold. The

47:10

Daily Herald June 9th 1893. It was just 11 o'clock when

47:16

a closed carriage drew up to the rear

47:18

of the courthouse. A deputy sheriff

47:20

stepped out of it and handed out his

47:22

hand to assist Lizzie Borden. The

47:24

crowd pressed forward in a sort of frenzy

47:27

to catch a glimpse of the woman but

47:29

she slipped quietly into the building before they

47:31

were able to do so and walked quietly

47:33

to her place in the prisoner's dock. The

47:37

Washington B June 10th. The theory

47:40

of the prosecution is that Lizzie

47:42

Borden was on bad terms with

47:44

her mother in law and that

47:46

this enmity with her knowledge that

47:48

her father intended to change his

47:50

will to favor Mrs. Borden incited

47:52

her to the double murder. The

47:55

case against Lizzie was compelling

47:58

especially when a neighbor the same that

48:00

had caught her ripping and burning her

48:02

dress, swore before the jury

48:04

that Lizzie had said to her the

48:06

day before the murders that

48:09

she would soon be going on

48:11

vacation, and felt that

48:13

something is hanging over me. I cannot

48:16

tell what it is. And

48:19

yet, opinion over Lizzie's

48:21

guilt was divided. In

48:24

one remarkable and callous moment

48:26

of the trial, the skulls

48:29

of Andrew and Abby Borden, now

48:31

stripped of their flesh and used

48:33

as evidence, were brought

48:35

into the courtroom. A

48:37

ripple of shock and sympathy ran

48:40

through the crowd when, confronted

48:42

with the bones, Lizzie fainted.

48:45

On June 20th, the all-male

48:48

jury stepped out to deliberate.

48:51

They took just an hour and a

48:53

half to reach their conclusion. Lizzie

48:56

Borden was not

48:58

guilty. If

49:22

I were being skeptical, and I always am, it's very

49:24

easy to feign fainting. Yeah,

49:32

exactly. Now, there's ambiguity around this

49:34

moment. There are some reports that

49:36

say that these were models of

49:38

the skulls of the victims. Other

49:41

people in other places have claimed

49:43

these were the skulls. But either way, these

49:45

are the skulls of people who've been, let's

49:47

not forget, without putting too fine a point

49:49

on it, hacked to death with a hatchet.

49:52

And Lizzie's fainting,

49:55

is that the reaction of an

49:58

innocent daughter slash stepdaughter? seeing

50:00

the reality of what had been done to her

50:02

loved ones. Is it

50:04

the reaction of someone who committed those

50:06

murders and is now having to relive

50:09

that? Or are those the actions of

50:11

someone who did do the

50:13

killings and is trying

50:15

to act as she believes

50:17

an innocent person would do? The

50:21

other thing to say, I think, about

50:23

the court case and why she gets

50:25

off is because of the all-male jury.

50:27

And she absolutely, whether she's guilty or

50:30

innocent, she plays them. She turns up

50:32

every day for court with a fresh

50:34

bouquet of flowers. We famously know that

50:36

flowers in the 19th century have their

50:39

own language. You can make bouquets and

50:41

gift them. It's part of a courtship

50:43

ritual that people do. You know, and

50:45

these different flowers have different meanings, different

50:47

ideas that they symbolize. And

50:50

the newspapers every single day

50:52

clamour to see what flowers she's brought

50:54

in and try and decode them. It's

50:57

sort of quite Taylor Swift-esque, minus

50:59

the murder, of course. But that

51:01

thing of hiding messages and giving

51:03

something to your public to decode

51:05

and that they will become obsessed

51:07

with. And interestingly, the newspapers every day

51:09

report completely different flowers. So obviously, a lot

51:11

of these newspapermen have no idea what they're

51:13

looking at. They're just making it up. You

51:16

know, one man's white rose will be

51:18

another man's peony. Like, they don't have a clue. But

51:20

she does that. And she also wears these

51:22

really ornate brooches at her

51:25

throat to draw attention up to her

51:27

face whilst wearing entirely

51:29

black morning clothes. And this is a

51:31

year on from the deaths of her

51:34

family. This is

51:36

someone who either has an unbelievable

51:39

instinct, the PR and

51:41

how to play it, or she is being

51:43

coached really well by the team around her

51:45

defence. I suppose regardless of

51:47

whatever tactics she's using, they

51:50

work, right? Because she's found innocent. And

51:52

the shock to know as I might be by that,

51:54

even at the insinuation that she

51:57

was manipulating the jury potentially, she

51:59

now. to go on and live her life

52:01

and she has to live out the rest of her

52:03

life. And look, it's the late 19th century. If we

52:06

know anything about the late 19th century, it's that reputation

52:08

is everything. But then we did

52:10

have the suffragists coming out in support of

52:12

her during the trial. So is she now

52:14

heralded as this hero or is

52:16

her reputation destroyed? Her reputation is

52:19

largely destroyed because of the

52:21

way that she gives evidence in court, because

52:23

of the way that her private life is

52:25

laid bare. She's seen as

52:27

a bit of a pariah really. And

52:30

interestingly, she doesn't leave the city. She

52:32

doesn't leave Fall River. Her and her

52:34

sister actually sell up

52:36

the house where the murders happened,

52:38

which you can understand. And

52:41

they buy with all the

52:43

money they've inherited from their father,

52:46

a big house on the

52:49

hill, the hill being the most desirable

52:51

part of the city where

52:54

the wealthiest live. And so it's

52:56

such a fascinating thing that she ends up quite

52:59

literally on top of this city,

53:01

living with its wealthiest, looking down

53:04

on everyone else, using

53:06

the money that her dead father has left her

53:08

that's come to her through his death when

53:11

potentially she took

53:14

his life. Yeah, it's suspicious as well, right?

53:16

Because what it highlights is the fact that

53:19

Abby had to be killed in this scenario

53:21

in order for the sisters to get the

53:23

money. Yes. Just the father dying is totally

53:25

pointless because then the money is going to

53:27

Abby. So and the fact that Abby is

53:29

killed first, according to the forensics at the

53:31

time, doesn't look great. Yeah, there's an interesting

53:34

question, I suppose, about Lizzie's sister, Emma, as well,

53:36

who we know she's not in the house at

53:38

the time of the murders, she's been staying elsewhere

53:40

and their uncle, Uncle Morse, does go to find

53:42

her later on in the day. But they

53:45

do live together afterwards. And

53:47

I suppose there's maybe a case to

53:49

be made that they did the murders

53:51

together in some way. But interestingly, after

53:54

the trials died down, and Lizzie's got her newfound

53:56

freedom, and they bought the house on the hill,

53:59

Lizzie takes off.