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remain active on the boost unlimited plan Deep

1:01

in the ocean an orca pod is on

1:04

the hunt these aren't your

1:06

average orcas These guys

1:08

are organized Marketing

1:10

team did you get those social media post

1:12

scheduled for the seal migration? Hi,

1:14

I captain we even have an automated notification

1:16

for all pod managers when they go live

1:20

They use Monday calm to keep their teamwork

1:22

sharp their communication clear and their goals in

1:24

sight Monday calm for

1:26

whatever you run even orcas go

1:29

to Monday calm to dive deeper This

1:40

is the story of one of America's

1:42

greatest Mysteries the lost colony

1:44

of Roanoke and the attempt by

1:46

the English to establish a colony

1:48

on the shores of the North

1:50

American continent in

1:54

1587 a hundred and fifteen

1:56

settlers vanished without a trace

2:00

The only clue they left behind was

2:02

the word Croatoan carved into a

2:04

tree. Myths

2:06

swirl around this history.

2:09

The truth, however, is

2:11

complex. But

2:14

for now, it's 1585 and

2:16

we're in a secondhand village

2:18

on the Pamlico River in

2:20

North Carolina. It's two

2:22

years before the Lost Colony will

2:24

be, well, lost. Englishman

2:27

John White is sketching the scene

2:30

before him. The tobacco

2:32

crop, the field of ripe maize,

2:34

the low houses, the makeshift chapel

2:37

and the burial ground. The

2:40

villagers are eating their meals

2:42

talking soberly. He's sketching

2:44

the tilled earth and the pumpkins

2:46

that spring bulbous from it, a

2:49

shock of colour in a land

2:51

of autumnal greys and browns. But

2:54

take all of this with a pinch of salt. Although

2:57

John White is a passable artist,

2:59

he doesn't have the best eye

3:02

for detail. For instance, he's

3:04

given some of the people before him

3:06

two right feet. Not

3:08

far away from this sketcher sits

3:11

his guide, Mantello, of the

3:14

Croatoan tribe. He's

3:16

spent much of the previous year living

3:18

in London in the house of Sir

3:20

Walter Raleigh and is no stranger to

3:22

settlers looking to expand their reach in

3:24

the New World. Now

3:26

he's returned to act as an

3:29

intermediary in England's first

3:31

attempt to establish a permanent

3:33

foothold on this continent. If

3:36

we're to understand the mystery of

3:38

the Lost Colony, we need to

3:40

start here to try to unpick

3:42

this badly drawn picture of

3:44

the first faltering steps

3:46

of English colonisation. Thank

3:56

you. I

4:00

am so intrigued by this. Welcome

4:13

back, by the way, to After Dark Towers. I'm Antony. And

4:16

I'm Maddie. And we've been languishing in these towers

4:18

for the last however many days, waiting for you all to

4:20

come back and listen to another bizarre

4:23

or dark history. And today we are looking

4:25

at one of the greatest mysteries in

4:27

history, the fate of the lost colony of

4:29

Roanoke. And our guest today, and we

4:31

have long been asking for Misha to be

4:33

one of our guests, but it's Dr.

4:35

Misha Ewen, a lecturer in early modern history

4:38

at the University of Sussex and author

4:40

of The Great Virginia Venture, American

4:42

Colonization and English Society, 1580 to 1660.

4:46

Misha, we're so glad to have you at long

4:48

last. Yes, it's so nice to be here and

4:50

see both your faces as well. Thank you for

4:52

inviting me. Not at all. It

4:54

is absolutely our pleasure. Now I'm going to ask

4:56

you to do some very basic

4:59

background on this, because for those who

5:01

may not be familiar with the mystery

5:03

of Roanoke, so let's let's read the

5:05

history for a second. What

5:08

exactly is the mystery? Okay,

5:10

so as you've already suggested, it

5:12

does become known as the lost

5:14

colony and the lost colonists. And

5:17

this is because in 1590, when

5:19

John White, who you've already mentioned,

5:21

returns to Roanoke. So after he's

5:23

voyaged back to England to resupply,

5:25

there's been a stay of shipping

5:28

because of the Spanish Armada in

5:30

1588. Elizabeth says, you

5:32

know, no ships can go. We can't risk, you

5:34

know, losing any of our precious shipping. We're at

5:36

war. He tries to make

5:38

his way there by hiring smaller privateer

5:40

ships. He doesn't manage to reach it.

5:42

And when he does finally get back

5:45

there in 1590, there is no sign

5:47

of any of the colonists. He can

5:49

see that they've pulled down the houses,

5:51

which suggests that it was a deliberate

5:54

abandonment, if you like, of the colony, that, you know,

5:56

they were not kind of hurried or rushed from the

5:58

site. can see is

6:00

sketched into one of the palisaded posts

6:03

is this word Croatoan, which suggests that

6:05

well, he thinks that perhaps that's where

6:08

the colonists have gone to seek refuge

6:10

with local indigenous people. The

6:12

colonists are never found, but

6:15

within several generations when English colonists again

6:17

returned to this region and established Jamestown,

6:19

there were all different kinds of reports

6:21

about what might have happened to them.

6:24

Even you know kind of 130 years

6:26

later when English men are surveying in

6:28

that area, they also hear stories from indigenous

6:31

people about what might have happened to

6:33

these English settlers and this continues right

6:35

through into the 20th century

6:38

and around 1937 when there's

6:40

the 350 year anniversary of the establishment

6:45

of the colony. There are all different kinds

6:47

of commemorative events so it's very much a

6:50

part of the origin story of the

6:52

United States and particularly individuals are kind

6:54

of picked out from this story as

6:56

you know they're mythologised in ways that

6:58

are quite disturbing as well and perhaps

7:00

we might come on to talk about

7:02

that later but yeah it's very much

7:04

in the story of English America this

7:06

is the starting point and yeah there

7:08

is this mystery which surrounds what happened

7:10

to the people and the fascination not

7:12

just since but also at the

7:14

time of what became of them.

7:16

This doesn't often happen to me on after

7:19

dark but I actually have goosebumps and it's

7:21

not just because we're changing from summer into

7:23

autumn but I think this is

7:25

such an interesting story it has so many mysterious

7:28

elements and so many different types of history

7:30

coming in here we've got the history of

7:32

colonization we've got as you say this kind

7:34

of myth making around early America we've got

7:37

you reference there the Spanish Armada and things

7:39

happening back in England so

7:41

let's get into some of the concrete history

7:43

that we know we know that the Lost

7:45

Colony as it's going to go on to

7:47

be called is founded in 1587 but there's

7:49

a previous failed

7:53

colony from 1585 two

7:55

years earlier as well so why

7:57

are the English trying to

7:59

build this settlement, this stronghold

8:02

in this part of North America in this moment,

8:05

Misha. Yeah, so I guess

8:07

the backdrop to this is, you

8:09

know, by this point almost a century of

8:11

English exploration, if you

8:13

like, in parts of North America,

8:16

so much further north in present-day

8:18

Canada, seeking the Northwest Passage, but

8:21

also in what we now think of

8:23

as, you know, the eastern coast of

8:25

North America, which was coined Virginia by

8:27

Raleigh, but also parts of Newfoundland as

8:29

well in Atlantic Canada. So they have

8:32

been going into these places,

8:34

trying to establish settlements in search

8:36

of natural resources. They are encountering

8:38

indigenous people and hearing different kinds

8:41

of stories about, you know, gold

8:43

and silver mines and tin mines,

8:45

and they're thinking about the

8:47

ways in which they can exploit

8:49

the natural riches of this region.

8:51

But importantly, for the English at

8:53

this time, the Chesapeake region and

8:55

Roanoke and what will later become

8:57

Virginia hasn't yet been claimed by

8:59

another European power. And that's really

9:01

important, because obviously we don't really

9:04

want to have direct conflict

9:06

if we can avoid it. But you

9:08

mentioned the Spanish Armada, and this is

9:10

obviously occurring against the backdrop

9:12

of the reformation and rivalry between what

9:14

is now Protestant England and Catholic Spain,

9:16

and this sense in which if they

9:18

can get a foothold in the Chesapeake

9:20

first, which is thought of

9:23

by other Europeans as being a

9:25

tactically advantageous spot, but also rich

9:28

in natural resources, that from this

9:30

point, the English can begin to

9:32

expand their New World Empire and

9:35

begin to counter Spanish

9:37

influence in what is then, you know,

9:40

the Caribbean and parts of South America.

9:42

And when they go in 1585

9:46

to 86, I guess what's

9:48

a little bit different from what comes

9:50

later is that at that point, they're only sending boys

9:52

and men. It's very much a

9:54

military garrison. They are obviously kind of

9:56

making exploratory missions whilst they're there. to

9:59

try and you know survey the land

10:01

and like you say white produces all

10:03

of these drawings, both of the people

10:05

but also the plants and the animals

10:07

in that area. But when they return

10:09

in 1587 with this much

10:12

larger group including these family groups, women,

10:14

some women who are pregnant as well,

10:17

there's much more of a sense of

10:19

establishing a civilian colony and that's actually

10:21

very new and unique for the English

10:23

in the 16th century and is obviously

10:26

what will then become the model for

10:28

English settlement in the 17th century. So

10:30

there are lots of ways in which Roanoke

10:32

kind of creates a blueprint for what will

10:34

come later even though it

10:36

isn't successful in the way that English

10:39

colonists would have liked. Let's

10:41

put some of those characters back into

10:43

that settlement then. Two that you've mentioned

10:46

so far are Montayo and John White.

10:48

Can you tell us a little bit

10:50

about both of those people? So

10:53

John White is from London. He

10:56

is employed by Raleigh because he

10:58

has a range

11:00

of different skills I guess that he

11:02

can bring to this colonial venture but

11:04

primarily it's to record what he sees

11:06

as Maddy's already mentioned. Both the people,

11:09

the kinds of settlements that they encounter

11:11

but also the flora and the fauna

11:13

as well. He's married,

11:15

he has a daughter, several

11:17

grandchildren, a son-in-law and they

11:19

join the later colony in

11:22

1587 with him. Montayo like

11:24

Maddy said has spent some time in London,

11:27

in the household of Raleigh. He

11:29

has been informing them about the region acting

11:31

as a go-between but also you know that

11:33

this real sense that at this time there

11:36

is knowledge exchange between

11:38

Indigenous people and English colonists,

11:40

this kind of two-way relationship

11:42

and he then returns with

11:45

them in 1587 back to the region and the

11:47

idea is that he can help to broker

11:49

good relations with the local

11:51

Indigenous population. He's also

11:54

joined in London by another

11:56

Indigenous man named Woncheezy who

11:59

also stays on the Strand at

12:01

Raleigh's property and they're

12:03

involved in later

12:05

with helping to produce different

12:08

texts and kind of you know

12:10

create these very early

12:12

guides if you like for colonists about

12:14

the kind of the language, the customs, the

12:16

culture of the people, something that they can

12:18

use when they go back to

12:21

these parts of North America to

12:23

establish the colonies. Should we

12:25

be surprised Misha that the

12:27

Indigenous people who just described that

12:30

they're looking to collaborate with colonists.

12:32

This maybe isn't the narrative that

12:35

we understand from our modern perspective. I'm

12:38

assuming that that's not a blanket

12:40

case across all of

12:42

the Indigenous tribes living in the areas that

12:44

are being colonised by the English and indeed

12:46

by the Spanish but is this an unusual

12:48

situation or is this something that's been cultivated

12:50

by both sides if you like? Yeah

12:53

so definitely not unusual, definitely being cultivated

12:55

by both sides but I think also

12:57

there's a spectrum isn't there? So a

13:00

spectrum in terms of I guess how

13:02

consensual sometimes these journeys are, these relationships

13:04

are, you know I think what historians

13:06

appreciate more today than perhaps we did

13:09

a few generations ago is that you

13:11

know this is also occurring against a

13:13

really complex backdrop of Indigenous politics and

13:16

different rivalries and things that they are

13:18

seeking from brokering relationships with different European

13:20

groups, ways they might advantage

13:22

their own political groups versus

13:24

others and there is a pattern

13:27

as well of the English bringing

13:29

these go-betweens back to England

13:31

with them and that's something

13:33

which also continues into the 17th century as

13:35

well. It's something that we see recurring again

13:38

and again, this sense of collaboration both on

13:40

producing you know new texts and knowledge about

13:43

the so-called new world and but

13:45

also using them on the ground

13:47

as well to help broker these

13:49

political relationships with local leaders but

13:51

also acting as interpreters as well

13:53

but I do think that we do have

13:55

an appreciation now that sometimes this is also

13:57

coming about through the motivations of the world.

14:00

of Indigenous people and it's not just

14:02

completely one-sided. So, Misha, we've

14:04

got this early settlement

14:06

that we know fails before we

14:09

get the lost colony that disappears,

14:12

that vanishes without a trace. So

14:14

let's just focus on that first

14:16

iteration of the settlement then. We

14:18

know it fails. Do we know

14:20

why? Well, as I mentioned before,

14:22

it's very much a military

14:24

garrison. So it's populated by men and

14:26

boys and it's a

14:28

very violent colony as well. So

14:31

it's led by Ralph Lane who

14:33

goes on to massacre and kill

14:35

one of the local leaders, a

14:37

man named Wing Gina. So

14:39

relations with the local Indigenous people

14:41

completely breaks down, which is counter

14:43

to their plans because they think that

14:45

they need to have good relations with

14:48

local Indigenous people in order to broker

14:50

diplomatic relations but also to use their

14:52

knowledge about the region and the local

14:54

resources that they're planning to exploit. So

14:57

they decide actually the English colonists that Roanoke isn't

14:59

a suitable location for a settlement and when they

15:01

return in 1587 the intention is

15:04

that they'll actually make their way much

15:06

further north to the Chesapeake but they're

15:09

dropped off in Roanoke kind of against

15:11

their will and their plans and

15:13

that's how it unfolds from that point. Well,

15:35

After Dark listeners, we have an introduction to

15:37

make on today's podcast and the person we'd

15:39

like to introduce is probably somebody you already

15:41

know and if you don't, you should get

15:43

to know his podcast and that of course

15:45

is Dan Snow, host of Dan Snow's History

15:47

Hit. Dan, welcome to After Dark. Hey guys,

15:49

well, it's a great honour to be on

15:51

the podcast tickly because it's now such a

15:54

behemoth. It's such a juggernaut. I'm very

15:56

excited. Are you enjoying being part of

15:58

the history hit family? Oh,

16:01

we absolutely are. It's been such a joy.

16:03

And early on, it was so nice to

16:05

borrow presenters from different history hit podcasts and,

16:07

you know, get to know everyone a little

16:10

bit, get to know everyone's different approaches and

16:12

perspectives to history. And I think, Dan, we're

16:14

going to talk not about our own podcast

16:16

here, but about your podcast and the thing

16:19

that I love and have to admit to

16:21

you, I have been a real genuine listener

16:23

of your pod for many years, not to,

16:25

you know, out you on the age front

16:28

here, Dan, but I really have been genuinely

16:30

a fan. And one thing that

16:32

I love in terms of that perspective, the angle

16:34

that you bring is that it's

16:36

so you make history so relevant in terms of

16:38

what's happening in the headlines right now. Is that

16:41

just your perspective on history, Dan? Is that just

16:43

how you see the past and present and how

16:45

they interlink? Thanks, Maddie. Yeah, I bet you've been

16:47

listening to it ever since you were in primary

16:49

school. Of course. My passion, I

16:51

came for a family of journalists, but

16:54

I always loved history. As you say, history is urgent.

16:56

History is the reason that we've got too much

16:58

carbon in our atmosphere. It's the reason that America

17:01

and China are eyeing each other up in

17:03

the South China Sea. It's the reason that

17:05

Vladimir Putin thinks Eastern or all

17:07

of Ukraine is part of Russia. All

17:09

of these things which are affecting our lives, those

17:12

of our families, loved ones, children and their children

17:14

and their children, all of those things are

17:17

deeply rooted in our past. So my

17:19

passion is those episodes where I

17:22

take up something that we're seeing today,

17:24

Ukraine, the fervor of the American election,

17:26

Brexit, Taiwan and

17:28

Middle East Israel, Palestine, and

17:31

I try and look into the deep history of it. That

17:33

is my passion. Having said that, I also just love banging

17:35

out an episode in Francis Drake or

17:37

Florence Nightingale. It's a great narrative stories and history.

17:39

I like doing both. I've always wanted my pod.

17:41

I've never wanted to pin it down. I think

17:43

like you guys with your podcast, you actually wanted

17:45

to find yourself as widely as possible because it

17:47

just makes it more interesting for us when we

17:49

go to work. But one of the things that

17:51

works really well, I think, on your podcast and

17:53

if there are after dark listeners who don't listen

17:56

to Dan's podcast do because one of the things

17:58

we share in common is... this

18:00

broad view, but really bringing in,

18:02

as you're saying, Dan, individual narratives

18:04

to help locate those

18:06

histories within people's lives and within the

18:09

lives of people who are listening today.

18:12

And what kind of narrative drive do

18:14

you think mostly appeals to you when

18:16

it comes to history? Because, you know, we can

18:18

all do facts and figures, we can all Google,

18:21

but what is it about those big sweeps of

18:23

narrative history that really gets your interest peaked? Well,

18:25

you said it better than I could do, I

18:27

think, really, but it's the fact that it's the

18:29

greatest, they're the greatest stories ever told, like the

18:32

best stories are true stories. And

18:34

then as well as these incredible dramatic arcs

18:36

that touch the lives of everybody, it's the

18:38

human beings within them. It's the fact

18:40

that we know enough about what it

18:43

was like to be Archduke Franz Ferdinand as he

18:45

drove through the streets of Sarajevo that day. We

18:47

kind of have a pretty good idea of what

18:49

was going through Kaiser Wilhelm's head as he mulled

18:52

over the big decisions and Zarnikolas as they

18:54

mulled over the decisions that basically plunged the

18:56

world into catastrophic war and condemned their

18:59

own families and their own

19:01

regimes to oblivion or worse. So it's just

19:03

those, as you say, the individuals being caught

19:05

up in it is so fascinating. So it's

19:07

telling the big story and then cutting back

19:09

and reminding everyone that there are families

19:12

and humans driving

19:14

these events and becoming caught up in these

19:17

events. Thinking about some

19:19

of those stories that we have in

19:21

common, Dan, and some of those human

19:23

elements that drive us all, I think,

19:25

to tell history, the thing

19:28

that I think we share is a

19:30

love of stories and history set on

19:32

ships. Now, we have covered

19:34

so many ships on After Dark and they're always the

19:36

most popular. We've done The Bounty, we've done HMS Terror,

19:39

recently listened down to your episode on

19:42

HMS Wager. I say, listen, I ran

19:44

to that. I have never downloaded anything

19:46

quicker in my entire life. But

19:48

for After Dark listeners who do love a

19:51

ship story, can you recommend any episodes on

19:53

your pod or indeed episodes that are not

19:55

set on ships that the people absolutely need

19:57

to hear? So yeah, HMS Wager.

19:59

you mentioned, that's just a story

20:02

that you couldn't make up. Shipwreck and

20:04

Mutiny, Murder, an astonishing

20:06

escape story. And

20:08

that's true of episodes, for example, on Mutiny on

20:11

the Bounty, Captain Blarne the Bounty. I would

20:13

quite like to recent one, was Scott's expedition

20:15

to the South Pole, was it actually sabotaged?

20:18

It was definitely let down by, well,

20:21

perhaps incompetence on the part of many

20:23

people involved, but was it actually maliciously

20:25

sabotaged? That's the big question. That's a

20:27

huge one. But if people want to get

20:30

away from the ice and the water, the desert

20:32

and the mountains are available. So I've done a

20:34

series on Ancient Egypt recently, and a series on

20:36

the Inca in the Andes, which was an amazing

20:38

experience. I got to walk the Inca trail through

20:40

the Andes and just explored a

20:42

civilization I knew nothing about. Well,

20:45

you heard it here, folks. You can get your

20:47

news and your alt from

20:49

Dan Snow's history here, wherever

20:52

you get your podcasts. And

20:54

honestly, you will not regret

20:56

it. Download every episode right

20:59

now. Homeowners,

21:04

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24:00

Right, so we have this contextual

24:03

information around what the colonizers are doing

24:05

here and what's happening on the ground

24:07

and the relationship they have with the

24:10

indigenous people but let's get a little

24:12

bit more into the detail of the

24:14

lost colony of Roanoke and Maddie is

24:16

going to give us a little bit

24:18

more detail. It's

24:23

1587 now. Once

24:29

again we are with John White in

24:31

the middle of a settlement in what

24:33

is now North Carolina. It's

24:36

a dark night on Roanoke Island and

24:38

he sits by a small fire in

24:40

the middle of the doomed English colony.

24:44

Up to now he has been

24:46

a bit part player, watching and

24:48

sketching from the sidelines, documenting progress

24:51

and considering his part in

24:53

the new world. But now

24:55

he's the leader of a

24:57

whole new operation. Around

25:00

him almost a hundred souls all

25:03

fated to become the lost colonists,

25:06

sleeping peacefully. But

25:08

don't picture them slumbering inside log

25:10

cabins as later illustrations would have

25:12

it. Instead they're

25:14

huddled in crude lean-to's made from

25:16

the bush and gathered together for

25:18

warmth. As White sits

25:21

frowning into the fire a cry breaks

25:23

out in the dark and for a

25:25

moment a smile crosses his face. Because

25:28

with that cry new life is

25:30

heralded, his granddaughter has just come

25:33

healthy and screaming into the world.

25:36

And her arrival marks a significant

25:38

turning point for those who've made

25:40

it to this far offshore because

25:43

she is the very first person to be

25:45

born to an English mother on

25:47

this entire continent. She

25:49

will even take its name, Virginia.

25:52

Virginia Dare. When

25:55

all is lost and gone her name

25:57

will linger on and the myths around

25:59

her. will grow and grow

26:01

and grow. Right,

26:10

so this, Misha, this is the trip

26:12

that gets lost. Who do we have

26:14

here and what would this group

26:17

of people have looked like? What's different about

26:19

this? They're quite an average bunch

26:21

of people in a way. So

26:23

John White lives in London, his family

26:25

live in London. And evidence would suggest

26:27

that most of this group are known

26:29

to each other. So, you know, lots

26:31

of them share the same surnames. They

26:33

attend the same parish churches. The

26:36

group is mostly from the city of

26:38

London. They're not kind of widely dispersed,

26:40

as you do find, with the settlement

26:42

of Jamestown, much later, for example. There

26:44

are brothers, there are cousins, there are

26:46

husbands and wives. Some have

26:49

children, some of the children are left behind

26:51

in England with relatives, some of the children are

26:53

brought with them, including some very

26:55

young infants. And in terms

26:57

of their social status, they are sort

26:59

of middling kind of people. So some

27:01

of them like John White's own son-in-law

27:03

are skilled. So he's a stone carver,

27:05

for example. And I guess they would

27:07

have tried to recruit people who had

27:09

some kind of useful skills. So they

27:11

might be carpenters, for example, bricklayers. So

27:13

they're not the kind of lowest people

27:16

in the kind of rungs of society,

27:18

but they're also not gentry. They're probably

27:20

not landowners either. Scholars

27:23

think that perhaps several of them might

27:26

be Puritans and that might help explain

27:28

some of their motivation as well. And

27:30

I think certainly they're Protestants. So I guess there is

27:33

a sense in which, there is a

27:35

religious motivation here, that they're kind of going to

27:37

the new world to settle this

27:39

colony, to help supplant Catholic

27:42

Spain's influence in the region.

27:45

So we do know a fair bit about the

27:47

makeup. We know all of their names. We know that

27:49

about 17 of them are women. And this, from

27:52

an English point of view, is completely

27:54

novel in this time. We haven't

27:56

had so far in English

27:58

history, groups of people. women being part

28:01

of these colonial ventures. And I think

28:03

that is interesting because it obviously suggests

28:05

that there is a sense of creating

28:07

a permanent stable society. It isn't just

28:09

going to be extractive, although it will

28:12

be extractive and exploitative as well, but

28:14

this sense in which they are very

28:16

much trying to replicate English society. And

28:18

of course you need women to be

28:20

able to do that through giving birth

28:23

to the next generation as Eleanor Deere

28:25

does when she gives birth to her

28:27

daughter Virginia. I love this idea,

28:29

Misha, that it's a community who

28:32

are all based in London originally and

28:34

they're sort of transplanted almost as a

28:37

whole to the New World, which is fascinating

28:39

because as you say in later settlements,

28:42

it's very much not the case and

28:44

you get people drawn in from all

28:46

different walks of life and different racial

28:48

identities, different classes. So it's a real

28:51

melting pot of people to better and

28:53

worse effect really. And it's just

28:55

thinking about the mystery and knowing what we now

28:58

know is going to happen to this colony, or

29:00

at least we know that something happens even if

29:02

the details still evade us. That there's something slightly

29:05

claustrophobic about the fact that everyone

29:07

probably knows, well certainly by the

29:09

time they arrive on the American

29:11

continent, everyone knows each other and

29:14

people are already expecting children,

29:16

they've brought children with them.

29:18

It feels like a very closed

29:21

off world and that seems

29:23

quite frightening to me. Do you think that was

29:25

the case? Do you think there would have been

29:27

this element of claustrophobia? Yeah, so you can

29:29

imagine it's really intense because as you say,

29:31

these are people who are already known to

29:34

each other but they've made this long journey

29:36

whilst some of these women are already heavily

29:38

pregnant too. And now

29:40

that you sort of raised that issue, it makes me think

29:43

about how traumatic it would have

29:45

then been for the families and communities

29:47

left behind in London when this entire

29:49

group of people just disappear from their

29:51

lives as well because in a way

29:53

it was so concentrated. And that is

29:56

very different from what becomes later, obviously

29:58

through the 17th century in which large larger

30:00

numbers of people take part

30:02

in colonisation in their thousands

30:04

and thousands, but there

30:06

is this sense of it being much

30:09

more widely dispersed. It must have been

30:11

really frightening as well and a real

30:13

sense of vulnerability because the group did

30:15

include pregnant women and

30:18

children who would have been less able

30:20

to defend themselves if that was necessary.

30:22

I wonder if that has added to this

30:25

sense of mystery and the reasons why they

30:27

have been mythologised because of the presence of

30:29

women within this group. I wonder if it

30:31

would have come about in the same

30:33

way had they not been there, but I

30:36

think that has contributed. I think gender

30:38

is a huge part of this

30:40

story and the ways in which it has

30:43

been mythologised and race as well, actually. So

30:45

how quickly did things start to go wrong

30:48

then? What was the turning point?

30:50

Was it a collection of things that happened?

30:52

Certainly it starts to unravel, but how

30:54

does that happen? I mean in some ways

30:57

it is quite undramatic. They just

30:59

think we are going to need more supplies, you are

31:01

going to have to go back to England, but they

31:03

see this as something which will be relatively straightforward, the

31:06

ships will be returned within a few

31:08

months, everyone will still be there and

31:10

yet it is the change in political

31:12

context in Europe which really creates the

31:15

disaster and this two-year delay in

31:17

being able to return. So it

31:19

is hard to know what then

31:22

happens on the ground. I think

31:25

as someone who studies later colonization in

31:27

North America, I can imagine that they

31:29

ran out of food very quickly. If

31:32

relations with the local indigenous people

31:35

had broken down, they might

31:37

have been unwilling to trade food with them, but

31:39

they also just might not have had enough food.

31:41

You know a bad winter and a bad harvest

31:43

can mean that you don't have enough for your

31:46

own people, never mind to share with these newcomers.

31:49

There could have been outbreaks of

31:51

illness and disease, although we know it is

31:53

quite a healthy site, they would have had

31:55

access to fresh clean water and like in

31:57

Jamestown where there were lots of issues with

31:59

very... brackish salty water, but still,

32:01

you know, a whole host of things. And

32:04

also if you do have women as part

32:06

of the group who are becoming pregnant and

32:08

going through childbirth, you know, many of them

32:10

might have died in, you know, from childbirth

32:12

complications. So you can imagine that maybe after

32:14

a year or two, the number of this

32:16

group could have been depleted, very weakened anyway,

32:19

even if the supply mission had made it back

32:22

quicker, you know, how many colonists would

32:24

have still been healthy and alive at

32:26

that point anyway. You mentioned Misha as

32:28

well, this racial element. And we know

32:30

that John White initially has

32:33

this one person, Mantello,

32:35

with him as a sort

32:37

of go-between, maybe as a figure who can

32:40

speak to everyone in

32:42

that local area, including the colonists, and

32:44

sort of negotiate those relations. But

32:47

that peacefulness, that collaboration

32:49

doesn't last very long, does it?

32:51

There is tension between the colonists

32:54

and the Native Americans in that

32:56

region, right? Yeah. And I

32:58

think this also is just a recurring

33:00

theme into the 17th century as well.

33:03

There are always violent

33:05

skirmishes and there might then be periods

33:07

of peace and negotiation

33:09

and trade, but quickly

33:11

violence re-erups and it's

33:14

usually English aggression, sometimes

33:16

making incursions too far into

33:19

Indigenous lands for no good

33:21

reason, attacking Indigenous people, killing

33:24

them. And I think

33:26

even when the Jamestown colonists return in

33:28

1607, so this is 30 years later,

33:31

you know, the

33:33

local people haven't forgotten who the English

33:36

are. You know, there are lasting memories

33:38

and impacts of this earlier

33:40

period of violence and

33:42

how that would have played out in,

33:46

you know, the kind of mystery of the

33:48

lost colony. You can imagine that there would

33:50

have been lots of local groups who would

33:52

have been very unwilling to give shelter to

33:54

these colonists, even if they were by that

33:56

point, you know, mostly women and children. They

33:58

would remember the earlier violence. of

34:01

lanes, settlements in 1585 and

34:04

86 when lots of indigenous

34:06

people lost their lives. So they have

34:09

little reason really to provide shelter

34:11

and protection to these English

34:13

settlers. And you mentioned violence

34:15

there, Misha, and we know that one

34:18

of the settlers was killed very

34:20

early on in the settlement by

34:22

an indigenous American. And then John

34:25

White and Mantayo are some of

34:27

the people that lead this retaliatory

34:29

raid that goes terribly

34:31

wrong because they end up killing the

34:34

wrong group of indigenous Americans.

34:36

And that then brings more violence

34:38

their way. John is sent home

34:40

to London to look for reinforcements.

34:43

He leaves in August 1587. And

34:46

this is just barely a month after they've arrived.

34:48

But he then can't get back to

34:50

the colony. So what is it that keeps him

34:52

away for so long? And why can't he get

34:55

back to them? So it's

34:57

Elizabeth's order that no ships would be

34:59

allowed to return because of the Spanish

35:01

armada. So in order to try and

35:04

get round this, what John does is

35:06

hires two smaller pinnaces to try and

35:08

make his way across, but he can't.

35:10

And then he does manage

35:13

to get there in 1590. Again,

35:15

he's had to hire

35:18

three smaller ships. And this is after

35:20

really begging Raleigh as well for Raleigh's

35:23

support for him to provide shipping. And

35:25

it's when he makes that return in 1590 that

35:27

he realises that the colony

35:29

has been abandoned and finds

35:31

this carving on the post

35:33

that might suggest what's

35:35

happened to them. And

35:56

this, of course, is where the

35:58

mystery comes in. It's

36:06

1590 now, three years after he

36:09

left to get help, and John

36:11

White has finally returned to Roanoke.

36:14

The story of his return has the

36:16

logic of a nightmare to it,

36:18

a jumble of confusing signs and

36:20

traces and ultimately a feeling

36:23

of helpless dread. On

36:25

the 15th of August 1590, White

36:28

and a small crew rode a

36:31

boat through shallow inlets towards Roanoke

36:33

Island. As night fell,

36:35

they tied the vessel up near the

36:37

shoreline and waited for the dawn before

36:39

setting foot on it. In

36:42

the dark hours, they saw smoke

36:44

rising above the treetops. The

36:47

group in the boat sang hymns

36:49

hoping to hear voices answering them

36:51

through the dark and confirmation that

36:53

the colonists were there and well.

36:56

At daybreak they went ashore and headed

36:58

for the spot where White had left

37:00

the colonists three years earlier. On

37:03

the way, they saw footprints in the

37:06

sand and a tree on top of

37:08

a sandbank with the letters C-R-O

37:13

carved into it. White

37:15

took this as a secret sign of some

37:17

kind. Finally around

37:20

a corner they saw the colony itself,

37:23

or rather the desolate remains of it.

37:26

All of the houses had been knocked down.

37:29

Detritus was strewn everywhere.

37:32

There was no sign of life. A

37:35

tall perimeter fence had been built around

37:37

the houses from giant trees. On

37:40

one of these a word had been carved. It

37:43

started with the same three letters as

37:45

they'd seen before, but this time it

37:47

went on. E-R-O-A-T-O-A-N.

37:54

Croatoan. That was it.

37:57

Nothing more than footsteps and

37:59

smoke and marks on a tree,

38:01

this was all that John White

38:03

could find so far from home

38:05

in search of a group that

38:08

included, let's not forget, his daughter

38:10

and granddaughter. What must

38:12

he have felt? What had

38:14

happened here? And where had

38:17

the Lost Colonists gone? Sorry

38:23

now, hold on, hold on, hold on. I

38:26

am no expert in

38:29

16th century settler culture

38:31

in America, but this doesn't seem

38:33

that mysterious to me at all. Your

38:35

man's gone for three years, and he

38:37

comes back, and this relatively small settlement

38:39

is no longer where he left it.

38:42

I mean, this is very early days. We're not

38:44

even into the 17th century when things start to

38:46

be maybe a little bit more formalised, so they

38:49

just got up and they left, surely. Misha, help

38:51

me. So,

38:54

I mean, there are different theories

38:56

about what might have happened. So

38:58

in the early 17th century, the

39:00

Jamestown colonists hear from Chief Powhatan,

39:02

who is a local leader and

39:04

the father of Pocahontas, that

39:07

his people had killed all

39:09

the colonists. But they also

39:12

hear reports that indigenous people

39:14

are claiming English ancestry. Later

39:17

in the 18th century, people report seeing

39:19

indigenous people who have grey eyes, and

39:21

this must mean that they also have

39:23

English ancestry, and they report having

39:26

grandparents and great-grandparents who read books

39:28

and were always waiting for rallieship

39:30

to return. I think probably what

39:32

most historians agree on now is

39:35

that possibly some of the group was

39:38

dispersed, might have been absorbed into local

39:40

indigenous communities. Most likely if

39:42

that happened, it would have included women

39:44

and children, but if there

39:47

was another outbreak of conflict, you

39:49

know, the men would likely have been killed.

39:51

But then how you square that with, I

39:53

guess, the physical evidence that, you

39:55

know, the houses were pulled down suggests that

39:58

maybe the group did choose to leave, as

40:00

you're kind of thinking and kind of move

40:02

around trying to seek shelter, but any number

40:04

of things could have then happened to them

40:07

really. Now, as a

40:09

historian of graffiti, I have

40:11

to ask about the carved

40:13

word, Croatoan. Why

40:16

do you think it is

40:18

carved? Is it carved by the colonists?

40:21

Is it carved by someone

40:23

who has wished them

40:25

harm? What can we glean from

40:27

this tiny piece of evidence? Well,

40:30

the word is both the name of

40:32

a place, but also the people that

40:34

inhabit that place. So I guess

40:36

the clue is that this is where we have

40:38

gone, where we're seeking shelter with these people. But,

40:41

you know, it could also mean, you know, we're

40:43

facing a threat from these people and

40:46

this is why we've had to leave. I think

40:48

these letters were clearly left for John

40:50

White. And it does make me think

40:52

about the fact that his son-in-law was

40:54

a stone carver. So you do wonder

40:57

whether the husband of Elinor Dare might

40:59

have actually made this carving himself. But

41:01

equally, I mean, you will know from your work that,

41:03

you know, they would have had tools at hand. Anyone

41:06

really that was survived at that point could

41:08

have made the carving into the wooden post.

41:10

It would have been a fairly, I guess,

41:12

soft material to work with as well. So

41:15

probably wouldn't have taken too much force or

41:17

skill. But yeah, I mean, I think

41:19

really the mystery or the reasons

41:22

why it has been mythologised, I

41:24

think, is because the sense in

41:26

which for a long

41:28

time and even at the time, English settlers wanted

41:30

to hold on to this idea that some of

41:33

them had made it. And that from 1587 onwards,

41:35

there has been an

41:37

English presence in North America. And this

41:39

happened earlier than Jamestown and it happened

41:41

even earlier than the pilgrims, you know,

41:44

right back into the 16th century. That

41:47

kind of wanting to stake a claim right

41:49

from the 16th century that there was this

41:51

English presence, I think is one of the

41:53

reasons that it's become such

41:55

a myth and such an origin story

41:57

for people in the US and historians

41:59

as well. still fascinated by it and what

42:01

might have happened to the people. But

42:03

today, there isn't much

42:06

that remains in terms of archaeological evidence and

42:08

actually archaeologists have really struggled to find where

42:10

this site might have been, which obviously could provide

42:12

lots of clues about what might have happened to the

42:14

settlers. That's fascinating and I

42:17

really like that insight of it

42:20

benefits the colonial

42:22

narrative for this to be

42:24

more of a myth than potentially it might

42:26

have been. Part of that myth making is

42:29

Virginia Dare, this very dramatic name. Can you

42:31

tell us a little bit of what we

42:33

know about her, but then the myth that's

42:35

grown up around her too? Yeah,

42:37

I mean, so you've already said obviously

42:39

she's named after the region. She's the

42:41

first English child to be born in

42:43

North America, but we don't know

42:46

what happened to her, whether or

42:48

not she survived, but she looms

42:50

really large in American culture,

42:52

particularly in the 19th century and

42:54

into the early 20th century. She

42:56

appears in lots of works of

42:58

fiction in 1937 when there is

43:01

the 350th

43:04

anniversary of the settlement and

43:06

all the commemorative coins which

43:08

are minted and stamps. Eleanor

43:10

and Virginia, that image, well,

43:12

an imagined image of them

43:14

features quite prominently on

43:17

these creations. So they become

43:19

very much a part of

43:21

the visual culture associated with

43:23

early English colonisation in

43:25

a way that is particularly unique. So

43:27

I guess the only other figure that

43:30

has become so mythologised and whose image

43:32

has been reproduced to the same extent

43:34

is Pocahontas. And I think it's for

43:36

similar reasons. It's about this sense of

43:39

establishing an English identity in North America,

43:41

one which is feminine and

43:44

pure and Christianised as well,

43:46

importantly. And I guess the birth

43:48

of Virginia, what it symbolises is

43:50

the birth of a new English

43:52

America, but one which is explicitly

43:54

white as well. And I think

43:56

that's important, you know, this desire

43:58

to ever change. established

44:00

this white Sutter community right

44:02

back in the 16th century

44:04

that continues obviously until today.

44:07

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that even

44:09

today she, the idea of her

44:11

is kind of perpetuated by white

44:13

supremacists really, and she's become this

44:15

kind of anti-immigration symbol, which of

44:17

course is incredibly ironic. Her family

44:19

were immigrants to that country, and

44:21

yes, she is the first English-born

44:24

person potentially in the American

44:27

continent. But, you know,

44:29

we talk a lot on After Dark about how stories

44:31

from the past are kind of emptied of

44:33

their original context and used in

44:35

new ways, and I think we absolutely see

44:38

that. It's so interesting to me that

44:40

you kind of make the comparison now

44:42

or the connection with Pocahontas, and you

44:44

mentioned earlier that Pocahontas' father is involved

44:47

in this story, and he really is

44:49

in that history, whether they have been

44:51

a similar age, Virginia Dare and Pocahontas,

44:53

and has anyone written a

44:55

book that puts the two of them together

44:57

because I need that book? Well,

45:00

there are certainly fictionalised accounts that when I

45:02

was doing some of the research for coming

45:05

on this podcast, learned that Virginia

45:07

Dare has features in these kind of

45:09

romance novels where John White

45:11

can't choose between her and Pocahontas,

45:13

so it is interesting the ways

45:15

in which these women have been

45:17

cast together because of their connections

45:19

in this earlier continent. They are

45:21

incredibly symbolic for how English

45:24

people at the time imagine this colonial project.

45:26

So, Pocahontas, it's about, you know, we are

45:28

going to, you know, convert the

45:30

Indigenous people, we are going to, you know,

45:32

quote, civilise them, and that's what she represents

45:34

for them. And I guess, Eleanor and Virginia,

45:36

on the other hand, is, you know, this

45:38

is the work that our English women are

45:40

going to do, they're going to go, they're

45:42

going to give birth to the next generation,

45:45

they're going to spread our language, our customs,

45:47

our religion. So women's images,

45:49

women's bodies are

45:51

doing all kinds of work for

45:53

the colonial project, and that is

45:55

both Indigenous women, but also white

45:57

European women. I think it's so

45:59

fascinating you thinking about... the reality of maybe

46:01

what happened to particularly the women like

46:03

Eleanor and Virginia. And I suppose

46:06

the reality is that they maybe died

46:08

of starvation, that they were killed,

46:10

or that they were consentingly assimilated

46:12

into local communities, indigenous communities. And

46:14

it's so fascinating to me that

46:16

if that was the case and

46:18

they were absorbed in that way

46:21

into a different culture, that

46:24

what they represent today is so at

46:26

odds with that. And it's such a

46:28

fascinating tension, and that gap between the

46:30

reality of this history and

46:33

the storytelling around it, that gray area

46:35

that's so hard to access and it's so hard

46:37

to filter truth and

46:39

storytelling. That's so tantalising.

46:42

Do you think that's the reason why

46:45

we return to the story again and again, that

46:47

these lost settlers, the reality of what happened to

46:49

them, the stories that we tell about them, it's

46:51

so compelling. Is that it? Is that what draws

46:53

us in? I think one

46:55

of the reasons that this story continues

46:57

to fascinate people is because it does

47:00

open a window into all different kinds

47:02

of hopes and anxieties that both the

47:04

settlers had at the time, but also

47:07

ones which continue to fascinate,

47:10

but also concern Americans over

47:12

several centuries, and particularly around

47:14

relations between white European settlers

47:17

and Native Americans as well. And

47:19

I think that is very much at the heart

47:21

of this story, whether or not

47:23

the colonists might have integrated and whether integration

47:25

was possible at the time, as well, is

47:27

obviously a key concern. I think one of

47:30

the reasons that people are so interested in

47:33

this story. And as Maddie was

47:35

saying, there's this tension between the fiction and the

47:37

fact, or the few facts that we do know,

47:39

I suppose. Can you tell us

47:41

a little bit about the dare stone, apparently

47:44

a message that was left by

47:46

Virginia, which is dubious in its

47:48

origins, I believe? Yeah,

47:50

and actually, and it's interesting that

47:52

these stones first appeared in 1937,

47:56

so the same year that these coins are

47:58

being minted, these stamps are being created,

48:00

you know, the play The Lost Colony

48:02

is staged for the first time down

48:05

at the site so there's a real

48:07

kind of cultural fascination at this time.

48:10

Several local so-called, well some of them

48:12

are real historians, some of them are

48:14

kind of pretenders essentially, kind of keep

48:16

discovering these these stones that tell this

48:18

very elaborate story of what happened to

48:20

the colonists. Much of

48:22

them are revealed shortly after as

48:25

Bean hoaxes and fakes, it's about

48:27

48 of them in total, but

48:30

there is still a huge question mark over

48:32

the first stone whether or not it could

48:34

be genuine. Some people have inspected the language

48:36

and the handwriting and say, you know, it

48:38

seems very much of the time, it seems

48:40

to be genuine Elizabethan English, but I do

48:42

unto myself, you know, how difficult

48:45

it would have been to forge

48:47

something like that, you know, if you

48:49

have some grasp on Shakespearean English and

48:51

a little bit of imagination, it's really

48:53

hard to say and I think historians

48:55

understandably are not keen to kind of

48:57

stake their reputations on really trying to

48:59

get to the truth of this because

49:01

I think it is problematic and away

49:03

it goes back to this issue of,

49:05

you know, why are we so fascinated

49:08

with wanting to sort of establish that,

49:10

you know, these people survived and there

49:12

have been white Americans in America since

49:14

the 16th century, so I think it's

49:16

just become so complex, so complicated and

49:18

so embroiled in white

49:20

supremacy and anti-immigration

49:23

rhetoric and anti-native feeling

49:25

and sentiment as well,

49:27

particularly in the 19th century

49:29

that I think, yeah, it's troubling really to

49:31

think about the ways in which the kind

49:33

of myths have continued to expand and change,

49:36

but I think some of that fascination nowadays

49:38

is more to do with, I guess, trying

49:40

to understand, you know, the history of colonization

49:42

itself, you know, the archaeology of the site

49:45

and what society would have been like and

49:47

the lessons that, you know, that might have

49:49

for the wider understandings of colonization in

49:51

the 16th and 17th centuries. Misha,

49:54

thank you so much for taking

49:57

us back to the Lost Colony

49:59

and really digging

50:01

down into those

50:03

myths, the history and those gaps in

50:05

between that are so fascinating and that

50:08

keep us coming back and returning again

50:10

and again. Thank you also, listener, for

50:12

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50:14

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