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everywhere. acast.com. Hello,

2:46

Anthony and Maddie. My

2:49

name is Christina Hogue and I stumbled across

2:51

After Dark as I was looking for a

2:53

podcast to listen to recently while I was

2:55

doing some painting and I'm now a devoted

2:57

fan. I love how you find

2:59

these dark little corners of history to bring to

3:01

life. I now live in

3:03

Santa Monica, California, but I was born in

3:05

New Zealand and grew up mainly there and

3:08

in Australia where everyone knows the story of

3:10

Ned Kelly, the Bush Ranger. And

3:12

I wondered if you'd ever thought of doing an

3:15

episode on him. I think he'd be a great

3:17

fit for After Dark. In the

3:19

meantime, I'll be listening. This

3:27

is the history of the murdering,

3:29

bank robbing Australian folk hero Ned

3:32

Kelly. The story

3:34

of Ned's life is so overburdened with

3:36

drama and myth making that it's hard

3:38

to know where to start or whose

3:40

version of the tale to tell. Let's

3:44

begin then on the day that Ned

3:46

became an outlaw or Bush Ranger. Accounts

3:50

of this day differ, but they all agree

3:52

that the man at the center of it

3:55

all was a police constable called Alexander Fitzpatrick.

3:58

Now if Ned was telling this

4:00

story he'd tell you Fitzpatrick had

4:02

a puny, cabbage-hearted looking face and

4:04

was never heard to be one night sober. Whether

4:08

that's true or not, we know

4:10

that on the afternoon of the 15th of April, 1878, Constable

4:14

Fitzpatrick set out alone for the

4:16

Kelly House in order to arrest

4:18

Dan Kelly, brother to Ned, for

4:20

horse-dealing. The

4:23

house was several hours' ride from town and

4:25

Fitzpatrick must have known it was dangerous to

4:27

go there alone. But go, he

4:29

did. Fitzpatrick says he

4:32

found Dan Kelly with his cutlery in

4:34

hand about to have his dinner. Dan

4:36

asked if he could finish his meal before coming

4:38

to the police station. Constable

4:40

Fitzpatrick agreed. Mrs

4:43

Kelly, mother to Dan and Ned,

4:45

began arguing with Fitzpatrick. All

4:48

of a sudden, Ned Kelly himself

4:50

appeared and without a word, fired

4:52

a gun at Fitzpatrick. He

4:54

missed, but Mrs Kelly took the chance

4:56

to hit Fitzpatrick over the head with

4:58

a fire shovel and Ned fired again.

5:01

This time, the bullet lodged in the policeman's

5:03

wrist. Fitzpatrick passed out.

5:07

When he came to, Ned forced Fitzpatrick

5:09

to dig the bullet from his own

5:11

hand with a sharp pen knife and,

5:14

in return, for sparing his life to

5:16

promise never to tell anyone that Ned

5:18

had shot him. Under

5:21

a fine, starry, moonlit night,

5:23

Fitzpatrick rode back to town.

5:26

Not for one moment of his long

5:28

and lonely journey that he considered keeping

5:30

his word. Ned Kelly

5:32

had shot a policeman and

5:34

he would be hunted down and made to

5:36

pay. When

5:38

they heard Fitzpatrick had squealed, Ned

5:40

Kelly, his brother Dan, their friends

5:42

Joe Byrne and Steve Hart took

5:44

to the bush. The

5:47

Kelly gang had been born. Hello

6:01

and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddy.

6:03

And I'm Antony. And

6:22

today we are getting into the legend

6:24

of Ned Kelly. Now our guest joining

6:26

us to take us through this history

6:28

is Dr. Meg Foster, who is a

6:31

historian of banditry and

6:33

author of Boundary Crosses, The Hidden

6:35

History of Australia's Other Bushrangers. Meg

6:37

is a winner of the 2024

6:41

Australia Broadcasting Company's prestigious Top 5

6:43

Media Placement for Early Career Academics.

6:46

And so we are especially delighted

6:48

to have her on the show

6:50

today. Meg, welcome to After Dark. Thanks

6:52

so much for having me. It's good to

6:54

be here. You're very welcome. And you're joining

6:57

us from Australia, where I think it's about

6:59

six in the evening. We're recording here quite

7:01

early in the morning. Yes, yeah, it's about

7:03

6pm in Sydney. Well, we're very grateful. Before

7:06

we get into the story of Ned Kelly

7:08

himself, can you give us a sense of

7:11

what Australia looked like in

7:13

this moment? Yeah,

7:15

so Australia in the 1870s,

7:17

very different to today. But

7:19

it had also come a

7:21

long way since British colonization

7:23

in 1788. So

7:25

almost 100 years had passed. We've

7:28

got several colonies. So there's

7:30

New South Wales, there's Victoria, there's

7:33

Van Diemen's Land, now called Tasmania,

7:35

Queensland. So these are

7:37

all separate British colonies. But

7:40

there's a long-established tradition of

7:43

kind of an inheritance of the convict times.

7:46

So if we go right, right back to 1788, British colonization,

7:50

convicts were sent to Australia in the first slate.

7:52

By the 1840s, convictism

7:54

had ended. But we actually see

7:56

its legacies continuing. So Ned Kelly's

7:58

father, for instance. was

8:00

actually a convict himself. But

8:03

we can see this kind of merge

8:05

of a kind of new national

8:07

consciousness. It's 20 years before

8:10

the Australian colonies federate, but there's still

8:12

a sense that people

8:14

who are born in the colonies

8:16

have a distinct national identity, a distinct

8:18

sense of self. And so

8:21

people like Bushrangers, like Ned

8:23

Kelly, are really articulating

8:25

something quite unique, this kind of

8:28

connection to place, to the land,

8:30

in what we now call Australia.

8:32

But that motion of

8:34

respectability I mentioned before is quite

8:36

important because this

8:39

was one of the reasons that politicians

8:41

argue that there should be independence of

8:43

Australia from Britain, that we'd kind of

8:45

left the convict staying behind, we'd left

8:48

that criminal past behind. And

8:50

so as a kind of mature outpost

8:52

of Britain, we could actually take matters

8:54

into our own hands and look after

8:57

our own affairs. Bushrangers really undercut that.

8:59

Especially the fact that Bushrangers like Ned

9:01

Kelly were born on colonial soil. They

9:03

were native, and I'm using this in

9:05

vertical, this is how they refer to

9:08

themselves, they were native to Australia. And

9:11

so the fact that they were the most

9:13

likely people to become Bushrangers kind of undercut

9:15

that sense that really we should have this

9:17

type of independence. So there are a couple

9:20

of things going on, a tension between respectability,

9:22

but then a kind of legacy of those

9:24

convict times and a bit of a hang

9:26

up on crime. So let's talk then Meg

9:29

about the Kelly family specifically. You hinted there

9:31

that Ned's father was a convict

9:33

and that's how he had arrived in Australia,

9:35

but give us a little bit of a,

9:37

or what we now call Australia, but give

9:39

us a bit of a broader context of

9:42

the Kelly family, where they had come from

9:44

and what they found themselves, the situation they

9:46

found themselves specifically in once they had arrived.

9:48

Yeah, so the Kelly family has roots in

9:50

Ireland and that's something

9:52

that is really emphasised in the myth and

9:54

the legend of Ned Kelly today. He had

9:56

Irish roots. It's something he actually

9:58

mentioned in his. letters

10:00

to the police and his justification for

10:03

his turn to crime, there's the oppression

10:05

of being Irish. That's a

10:07

really big part of things. So

10:09

both of his parents were originally

10:11

from Ireland and there's a really

10:13

strong sense that not only

10:16

were Ned Kelly's parents, but his

10:18

relatives by blood or through marriage

10:20

were all in the same area

10:22

of the colony of Victoria. And

10:25

so there's this real sense that

10:27

there's almost like a clannishness to

10:29

the Kelly family. They have these

10:31

Irish roots, they feel downtrodden by

10:33

the well-stoop classes in society, but

10:35

also the English. So there's definite

10:37

reference to that English versus Irish

10:39

tension there, but they are also

10:41

of the lower working classes. So

10:44

there are a few intersecting factors

10:46

going on there. There's Irishness, there's

10:48

lower class, but there's also that

10:50

sense of kind of a community

10:52

of clannishness. So looking to your

10:54

own, looking out for your own

10:56

that really kind of sets the

10:58

family apart. What do the

11:00

Kelly family do? How do

11:03

they make a living for themselves? Yeah,

11:05

so the Kelly family were small scale

11:08

selectors. They had a small parcel of

11:10

land and they

11:12

tried to work the land. That was

11:14

the kind of official narrative. Ellen

11:17

Kelly, Ned Kelly's mother also was known

11:19

to sell splygrog, so have a bit

11:21

of a kind of outback

11:24

pub, but an illicit one. It was

11:26

under the radar, so to speak.

11:29

But the main way that the Kelly family

11:31

seemed to have made their livelihood was through

11:34

cattle theft, horse theft in

11:36

particular. And so there are

11:38

real debates even among the historical community

11:40

today as to whether the Kelly family

11:42

were really supported in the area that

11:44

they lived in or whether in fact

11:46

they were feared in the local area

11:49

for people outside of their family because

11:51

they would take the horses

11:53

and cattle of their neighbours and it was

11:55

easier to keep quiet than to kind of

11:57

to have their wrath fall upon them. And

12:00

so the idea that Ned Kelly is

12:03

some type of freedom fighter,

12:05

that he's fighting against oppression, that he is

12:07

the oppressed, that that's

12:09

the language he uses, that he and

12:11

his family are oppressed, is really kind

12:13

of undercut when we look at actually

12:15

how they are oppressors of their neighbors

12:17

who weren't actually part of their

12:19

family. And tell me this,

12:21

we mentioned in the narrative at the very

12:23

beginning that Ned was a bush ranger.

12:26

Now, I would conjure up

12:28

this idea of somebody living this kind of idyllic

12:30

life in the outback and they have a

12:32

ranch maybe and some cattle and it all sounds very nice,

12:35

but that's not what's going on here. Can you tell us,

12:37

for those of us who don't know, including me, what

12:40

a bush ranger actually is? Yes, so

12:42

the first point to get across bush rangers

12:44

are criminals. They're not park rangers.

12:46

I've had someone say that to me before, you mean a

12:48

park ranger? No. These are people

12:50

who are breaking the law. So

12:53

people who engage in robbery with

12:55

violence, or at least the threat

12:57

of violence, and they live

12:59

in the bush to escape from the

13:01

law. That is their way of surviving.

13:04

Bush ranging has a history that starts with the

13:06

convict era where

13:08

convicts would run away from their masters, from

13:10

settlement, and the only way they could really

13:12

survive was through robbery because

13:15

they didn't have much of an understanding of the bush.

13:17

It was a very different environment, what they were used

13:19

to in Britain, especially if they

13:21

were from an urban area coming to the other side of

13:23

the world. Somewhere immensely

13:26

different was quite shocking

13:28

for some convicts. But

13:30

by the time that Ned Kelly's operating, there's

13:32

a sense that actually these

13:35

so-called native-born, these descendants of

13:37

convicts, ex-convicts, and free settlers

13:39

had more of a

13:42

sense of an affinity with the bush.

13:44

Even though the environment was harsh, they

13:46

could really make it their own. I

13:49

think that's something we can really see

13:51

playing out in the Kelly story, even

13:53

though the newspapers very often

13:56

condemned what was happening, condemned

13:58

the Kelly's actions. they couldn't really

14:01

veil that sense of, I guess, kind

14:03

of pride or a sense of achievement

14:05

in the fact they were able to

14:07

survive in these harsh elements for the

14:09

extent of time that they did. And

14:11

they possessed excellent horsemanship and

14:14

were actually able to make the bush

14:16

an ally. And so that's something that

14:18

really sets bush rangers apart. But

14:21

for a cultural touch point, I usually

14:23

say that American listeners might be familiar

14:25

with cowboys. It's kind of

14:27

the equivalent. They're outlaws. They're on the

14:29

run. They're robbing to survive. But

14:32

they're engaging in all these different crimes that

14:34

could be, you know, breaking

14:36

into someone's house and stealing goods, or it could be murder.

14:38

And that's what we see in the case of Nick

14:40

Kelly as well. Meg, tell me

14:42

this. You made the comparison there to cowboys

14:44

in America. And of course, one of the

14:47

elements of that history is

14:50

this encountering,

14:52

often violently

14:54

so, between the white

14:56

colonial settlers on that land and

14:58

the Native Americans. In Australia, there

15:00

are First Nations people already living

15:02

on this land in the bush,

15:04

right? So do the Kellys come

15:06

into contact with First Nations people?

15:09

Is there a conflict there? Do they

15:11

work together? What's that relationship like? Yeah,

15:13

it's a really interesting question. And even

15:15

the fact that you've raised it to

15:17

an Australian audience would be seen as

15:19

quite unique. We usually in the national

15:22

mythology in Australia separate First Nations history

15:24

from bush ranging. But

15:26

as you've kind of intimated, that's not actually how the

15:28

history played out. So we should

15:30

say at the get go, Australia

15:32

had and has First Nations people.

15:34

They have unseated sovereignty over the

15:36

land. They'll never any treaties and

15:39

they fought back to actually keep

15:41

their country. But through

15:43

a combination of violence and disease,

15:45

First Nations people didn't have immunity

15:47

to a lot of European diseases.

15:51

The population was greatly depleted by the

15:53

time we come to 1880 and Kelly's

15:55

on the scene. I guess I should

15:57

try to dispel the notion that there

15:59

are. solely remote Aboriginal

16:01

people living in the kind

16:03

of wilderness versus the kind of settlers in built-up

16:05

towns. That is not the case

16:08

at all. There's a real breadth of

16:10

different experiences of First Nations people at

16:12

this time. There were still remote communities.

16:15

There were some areas where Europeans hadn't

16:17

kind of penetrated the

16:19

environment yet. But there were also

16:21

Aboriginal people who had been living

16:24

in cities, in urban centres, and

16:26

were kind of well-known personalities in

16:28

certain locations too. And so

16:31

there's a really wide array. But First

16:33

Nations people really did play a pivotal

16:35

role in the hunt for Ned Kelly

16:37

through these native, this is the

16:39

language of the time, native police

16:41

trackers who were sent down from

16:43

Queensland. And there were reports

16:45

from the time that Ned Kelly in

16:47

particular was more fearful of these Aboriginal trackers

16:50

than he was the white police who he

16:52

saw as kind of bumbling and inept. That

16:54

these Aboriginal trackers he called, and this is

16:56

a quote from a newspaper article, Little Black

16:59

Devils, that he was very, very concerned were

17:01

actually going to hunt down him and his

17:03

gang on the run. And

17:06

you could see why First

17:08

Nations people had incredible

17:11

ability to live on the land. It's their

17:13

country. Of course they know the land. But

17:15

one point I would really like to note

17:17

is that there's one real big difference if

17:20

we're looking at, say, First Nations trackers and

17:22

their ability to live off the land and

17:24

the kind of skills they have versus

17:27

how the white male bush ranger

17:29

is perceived, is that the

17:32

white bush ranging man is seen to

17:34

have a real talent to be able

17:36

to live in the bush. It's meant

17:38

to be a hard-won skill set that

17:40

really sets them apart and actually naturalises

17:42

their presence. They're kind of at one

17:45

with the bush. The

17:47

way that First Nations people in

17:49

general and Aboriginal trackers in particular

17:51

are perceived is very

17:53

much they're not praised for these

17:55

skills. It's seen as kind of

17:57

a biological trait, something. that

18:00

shows that they're part of a

18:02

quote primordial race. So this is

18:04

really racialized, really discriminatory language. And

18:06

it really is used to have

18:09

this double-sanded. You've got First

18:11

Nations trackers who are renowned for their

18:13

skill and their aptitude and are so

18:15

feared by the Kellys. And yet, they're

18:17

not seen as really worthy of praise

18:19

because it seemed to be an innate

18:22

characteristics rather than a hard one skill

18:24

set. You're painting this vision

18:26

for me of this very

18:28

complex society that's not

18:30

really one whole. And within that,

18:32

as you say, there are these

18:34

very different, very varied experiences and

18:37

very different levels of power and

18:39

autonomy within the land, relationships to

18:41

the land are changing constantly and

18:43

evolving and mean different things for

18:45

different people. And it's fascinating within

18:47

that that we've got people being

18:49

recruited by institutions of power

18:52

by the police force and potentially

18:54

turned against each other. And then you've got

18:56

people like the Kellys living completely outside of

18:59

those same structures of power and posing different

19:01

threats to them. So let's go now to

19:03

our second part of the story. And let's

19:05

hear a little bit more about the Kellys

19:08

and what life was like for Ned Kelly

19:10

in particular out in the bush. In

19:15

October 1878, six months after

19:17

they had fled to the bush,

19:19

the cold hard logic of death

19:21

fell onto the Kelly gang. At

19:26

a place called Stringy Bark Creek, they

19:28

caught a group of policemen hunting for

19:30

them. Shots were fired. Three

19:33

police were killed. One got away.

19:36

Knowing now that there was no way

19:39

back, the gang embarked on a series

19:41

of sensational raids. I

19:43

could tell you about them. These

19:45

daring bank robberies at places called

19:48

Uroa and Geraldeary, stealing thousands from

19:50

right under the police's noses, burning

19:52

mortgage documents to free poor farmers

19:55

from debt, entertaining hostages with feats

19:57

of horsemanship before galloping back. into

19:59

the bush, but instead

20:02

I want to read from some

20:04

letters that Ned and the gang worked on while

20:06

they were in the bush, and deposited in towns

20:08

on each of their raids. More

20:10

than any story of daring do, these

20:12

letters give us a picture of the

20:14

man Ned Kelly really was. They're

20:17

dozens of pages long, and

20:19

every page drips with Ned's

20:21

wild imagination. Paragraph

20:23

after paragraph is full of

20:26

his seething hatred of the

20:28

police, who in one unforgettable

20:30

rant he describes as a

20:32

parcel of big ugly fat-necked

20:34

wombat-headed big-bellied magpie-legged narrow-hipped splay-footed

20:36

sons of Irish bailiffs or

20:38

English landlords. And

20:41

of course his nemesis, Constable Fitzpatrick, who

20:43

Ned claims shall be the cause of

20:45

greater slaughter to the rising generation than

20:47

St. Patrick was to the snakes and

20:49

frogs in Ireland, whilst he, Ned, thanks

20:52

God that his consciousness is as clear

20:54

as the snow in Peru. What

20:57

is going on here? Who is the wild

20:59

poet in the Outback with a heart made

21:01

of the pure snows of Peru and whose

21:04

enemies have the heads of turnips and wombats?

21:06

And, might I point out, we definitely still

21:08

have frogs in Ireland. Well,

21:39

after dark listeners, we have an introduction to

21:41

make on today's podcast, and the person we'd

21:43

like to introduce is probably somebody you already

21:45

know, and if you don't, you should get

21:47

to know his podcast. And that, of course,

21:49

is Dan Snow, host of Dan Snow's history

21:51

hit. Dan, welcome to After Dark. Hey guys,

21:53

well, it's a great honour to be on

21:55

the podcast, tickly, because it's now such a

21:58

behemoth. It's such a juggernaut. very

22:00

excited. Are you enjoying being part

22:02

of the History Hit family? Oh,

22:04

we absolutely are. It's been such a joy.

22:07

And early on, it was so nice to

22:09

borrow presenters from different History Hit podcasts and

22:12

get to know everyone a little bit, get

22:14

to know everyone's different approaches and perspectives to

22:16

history. And I think, Dan, we're going to

22:18

talk not about our own podcast here, but

22:21

about your podcast. And the thing

22:23

that I love and have to admit to

22:25

you, I have been a real genuine listener

22:28

of your pod for many years, not to

22:30

out you on the age front here, Dan,

22:32

but I really have been genuinely a fan.

22:35

And one thing that I love in terms of

22:37

that perspective, the angle that you bring, is

22:40

that you make history so relevant in terms of

22:42

what's happening in the headlines right now. Is that

22:44

just your perspective on history, Dan? Is that just

22:46

how you see the past and present and how

22:49

they interlink? Thanks, Maddie. Yeah, I bet you've been

22:51

listening to it ever since you were in primary

22:53

school. Of course. My passion, I

22:55

came from a family of journalists, but

22:58

I always loved history. As you say, history is urgent.

23:00

History is the reason that we've got

23:02

too much carbon in our atmosphere. It's the reason that America

23:05

and China are eyeing each other up in the South

23:07

China Sea. It's the reason that

23:09

Vladimir Putin thinks Eastern or all

23:11

of Ukraine is part of Russia. All

23:13

of these things, which are affecting our lives, those

23:16

of our families, loved ones, children and their children

23:18

and their children, all of those things are

23:21

deeply rooted in our past. So my

23:23

passion is those episodes where I

23:26

take up something that we're seeing today, Ukraine, the

23:28

fervor of the American election,

23:31

Brexit, Taiwan and Middle East,

23:33

Israel, Palestine, and I

23:35

try and look into the deep history of it.

23:37

That is my passion. Having said that, I also

23:39

just love banging out an episode in Francis Drake

23:41

or Florence Nightingale, the great narrative stories in history.

23:43

I like doing both. I've always wanted my part.

23:45

I've never wanted to pin it down. I think

23:47

like you guys with your podcast, you actually wanted

23:49

to find yourself as widely as possible because it

23:51

just makes it more interesting for us when we

23:53

go to work. But one of the things that

23:56

works really well, I think, on your podcast, and

23:58

if they're after dark listeners, you don't listen to

24:00

dance. podcast do because one of the things we

24:02

share in common is this

24:04

broad view, but really bringing in

24:06

as you're saying, Dan, individual narratives

24:08

to help locate those

24:10

histories within people's lives and within the

24:13

lives of people who are listening today.

24:16

And what kind of narrative drive do you

24:18

think mostly appeals to you when it comes

24:20

to history? Because you know, we can all

24:22

do facts and figures, we can all Google,

24:24

but what is it about those big sweeps

24:26

of narrative history that really gets your interest

24:28

peaked? Well, you said it better than I

24:30

could do, I think really, but it's the

24:32

fact that it's the greatest, that the greatest

24:34

stories ever told, like the best stories are

24:36

true stories. And then as

24:38

well as these incredible kind of dramatic arcs that

24:41

touch the lives of everybody, it's the human beings

24:43

within them. It's the fact that we

24:45

know enough about what it was like to be

24:47

Archduke Franz Ferdinand as he drove through the streets

24:50

of Sarajevo that day, we kind of have a

24:52

pretty good idea of what was going through Kaiser

24:54

Wilhelm's head as he mulled over the

24:56

big decisions and Tsar Nicholas as they mulled

24:58

over the decisions that basically plunged the world

25:01

into catastrophic war and condemned their own families

25:03

and their own regimes

25:05

to oblivion or worse. So

25:07

it's just those, as you say, the individuals being

25:09

caught up in it is so fascinating. So it's

25:12

telling the big story and then cutting back and

25:14

reminding everyone that there are families

25:16

and humans driving these

25:19

events and becoming caught up in these events.

25:22

And so when we think about some of

25:24

those stories that we have in common, Dan,

25:26

and some of those human elements that drive

25:28

us all, I think, to tell history, the

25:31

thing that I think we share is

25:33

a love of stories and history set

25:35

on ships. Now we

25:38

have covered so many ships on After Dark and they're

25:40

always the most popular. We've done The Bounty, we've done

25:42

HMS Terror, recently listened down

25:44

to your episode on HMS Wager. I

25:46

say, listen, I ran to that. I

25:49

have never downloaded anything quicker in my

25:51

entire life. But for

25:53

After Dark listeners who do love a ship

25:55

story, can you recommend any episodes on your

25:57

pod or indeed episodes that are not? sound

26:00

ships, but the people absolutely need to hear. So

26:02

yeah, Agent Miswage that you mentioned, that's just a

26:05

story that you couldn't make up, shipwreck

26:07

and mutiny, murder, an astonishing

26:10

escape story. And

26:12

that's true of episodes, for example, on the mutiny on

26:15

the bounty, Captain Blar on the bounty. Oh,

26:17

I quite liked a recent one. Was Scott's expedition

26:19

to the South Pole, was it actually sabotaged? It

26:22

was definitely let down by, well,

26:25

perhaps incompetence on the part of many

26:27

people involved, but was it actually maliciously

26:29

sabotaged? That's the big question. That's a

26:31

huge one. But if people want

26:34

to get away from the ice and the water,

26:36

the desert and the mountains are available. So I've

26:38

done a series on ancient Egypt recently and a

26:40

series on the Inca in the Andes, which was

26:42

an amazing experience. I got to walk the Inca

26:44

trail through the Andes and just

26:46

explored a civilization I knew nothing about.

26:49

Well, you heard it here folks. You can get

26:51

your news and your alts from

26:53

Dan Snow's History here, wherever you get

26:55

your podcasts. And honestly, you will not

26:57

regret it. Download every episode right now.

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p.com/after dark pod. I

29:45

absolutely love Ned's way

29:48

of speaking, writing. It's

29:51

very poetic. It's very silver

29:54

tongued. Meg, give us a sense. I

29:56

think it's fair to say that Ned despises

29:58

the police. force in Australia in this moment.

30:00

And of course, he's interactively working against them

30:03

and living, as we said, outside of those

30:05

bounds of legality and so called

30:09

respectability. But tell

30:11

me a little bit more specifically about

30:14

the police. Who are they made up

30:16

of other than turnip headed Irishman,

30:18

it seems to be the description, right?

30:21

There were a lot of Irishmen in the police

30:23

force. So that's the first thing to kind of

30:25

get across. And this is where, once again,

30:28

those boundaries become a bit blurry,

30:30

because one of the

30:32

things that Ned is saying is the reason

30:34

he's oppressed is because of his Irishness, his

30:36

Irish ancestry, as you kind of very eloquently

30:39

pointed out in that letter, he uses it

30:41

in the actual written

30:43

response he has to justify why

30:45

he's taken to the bush.

30:48

And yet the police force are very

30:50

often Irish, many of them came over after

30:52

serving in the Irish constabulary. So there

30:55

used to be a lot of different police forces in

30:57

Victoria prior to 1853. So there were about, I think

31:01

it was six or seven different forces. But in 1853,

31:05

they all came together, they formed one

31:07

force, but they really wanted that force

31:09

to be a professional, very

31:11

polished force. And so they they literally

31:14

recruited people from Ireland and sent them

31:16

over. I mean, look at the name

31:18

Fitzpatrick, could you get a

31:20

more Irish name? And so

31:22

the idea that we have of it's

31:24

kind of like Irish Ned against the

31:27

English authorities is really undercut by the

31:29

fact that the force is so Irish.

31:32

Some of the force in

31:34

Victoria may have also

31:36

come from New South Wales

31:38

because New South Wales originally encompassed

31:41

Victoria as well. And there's an

31:43

even more murky kind of story

31:45

there originally convicts and

31:48

ex convicts could be part of the police force.

31:51

And I should say as well that actually

31:53

New South Wales consolidated its forces a lot

31:55

later in the 1860s. But one

31:57

of the main reasons was that they were trying

32:00

to really distance themselves from those

32:02

convict routes and to

32:04

try to separate out criminal affiliations,

32:06

because although police officers may have

32:08

known the local community, they were

32:10

often being bought off or

32:12

they were trading and stolen goods themselves.

32:15

And so this idea that we have

32:17

that there is the police representing legality

32:19

and the Kelly's representing lawlessness is

32:22

really undercut by the fact that the

32:24

force could be quite corrupt. They could

32:26

be composed of the same people. They

32:28

could be in similar families. And when

32:30

we look at the extent that the

32:32

police force is actually composed

32:34

of people experiencing real hardship in many

32:36

instances, that they're paid a pittance, they

32:38

have to live in very remote areas.

32:41

They can be moved around at the

32:43

will of someone above them. There's

32:45

not a lot of respect in

32:47

the local communities very often for their office.

32:50

They have to deal with not only bush

32:52

rangers, they have to deal with snake bites,

32:54

they have to deal with lost children who

32:56

are wandering around in the bush, they often

32:58

served administrative roles and really remote outposts as

33:00

well. So the lot of a

33:02

police officer is actually not one

33:04

that you would sign up for unless you had

33:06

another option. And that's something that I think we

33:08

really need to bear in mind when trying to

33:11

recreate the world of which the Kelly's were apart,

33:13

it's not quite as clear cut as we might

33:15

think. I want to

33:17

follow up with two questions. One

33:20

of which relates to the letters themselves. The

33:22

first part being, do we know that

33:24

Ned Kelly himself actually wrote all of this

33:27

or was this some kind of collage

33:29

of different thoughts or is it literally just

33:31

his work and what

33:34

does it tell us about him then or the

33:36

idea of him? What do these letters tell us

33:38

about him? We don't think that

33:40

Ned Kelly actually wrote these. We're pretty sure

33:42

that one of the other gang members did

33:44

in part because it's unclear whether Ned was

33:46

fully literate, whether he could actually read and

33:49

write. And when you listen

33:51

to the letters, it seems like something

33:53

someone's saying. It's got that kind of

33:55

rhythm to it. It's this kind of

33:57

accumulation there. And so it

33:59

seems very likely to. was actually

34:01

transcribed. And so that's the

34:03

easy question. This can tell us about

34:06

Ned Kelly, that's a bit of a

34:08

trickier one, especially because we're not entirely

34:10

sure, as you say, whether this is

34:12

a composite, whether it's members of the

34:15

gang kind of shouting their two cents

34:17

worth, or whether this is

34:19

actually solely Ned Kelly's voice that we're hearing.

34:22

What we can see very clearly

34:24

is a real sense of grievance,

34:26

but we can also see this

34:28

real performativity, right? Ned Kelly is

34:30

pretty unique. Not many Bushrangers left

34:33

letters for the public or for

34:35

the police articulating their

34:37

grievances, stating that they have been

34:39

wrong, stating that they're actually resisting

34:41

an injustice, essentially. And

34:43

so I think that's what we

34:46

can see more. I don't know

34:48

if it tells us about Ned

34:50

Kelly's authentic self, but what

34:52

we can see through the letters is his

34:54

performance, his sense that he is trying to

34:56

reach an audience. He's trying to get supporters

34:58

on his side. And this proves

35:01

really pivotal when he's actually out in

35:03

the elements and he needs people to

35:06

pass an information about where the police

35:08

are. He needs people to give him

35:10

food and other resources. He needs people

35:12

to hide them occasionally. And

35:14

so by creating this kind of

35:16

mystique in his own time, this

35:18

type of narrative of being a

35:20

hero of the oppressed for fighting

35:22

back against injustice, we can

35:24

really see that this is maybe not necessarily

35:27

a reflection of his true self, but definitely

35:29

he has a keen awareness of his audience

35:31

and he's willing to try to play that

35:33

in order to get what he needs. So

35:37

on the one hand, we've got

35:39

this incredibly charismatic, actively

35:41

myth-making man and his gang who

35:43

are out in the bush hiding,

35:46

moving around, committing their

35:48

crimes, escaping from justice,

35:50

whatever that looks like in reality. And

35:54

then we've got the police, we've got

35:56

Fitzpatrick following them. Do we

35:58

know much about their movement? movements

36:00

about the people chasing the Kellys.

36:03

Do we know what that chase

36:05

would have entailed? What

36:07

did that look like? Messy. I think it

36:09

was the short answer. It looked very

36:11

messy. There wasn't a

36:14

lot of coordination in the police

36:16

pursuit. You had some

36:18

people who were locals trying to

36:20

volunteer, trying to hunt the Kellys

36:22

down. You also had imported police

36:24

officers, as we saw. We have

36:26

the native trackers from Queensland

36:28

who come down. But

36:30

the story of the police chase is

36:32

really a story of misinformation

36:35

in some instances, deliberate misdirection

36:37

in others. So while

36:40

the police and the authorities were definitely

36:42

trying to recruit locals to feed them

36:44

information, and there may have

36:46

been some people genuinely thinking they were

36:48

helping, just imagine

36:50

that you're there in the

36:52

bush. You're at this time. You hear that

36:54

the Kellys are about. You're really concerned about

36:57

yourself. You're living in a remote property. You

37:00

can imagine how that

37:02

anxiety would actually lead to

37:05

imagining danger as well.

37:08

You thought you saw Ned Kelly here. You

37:10

thought you saw his tracks. You heard that

37:12

his brother might be in

37:14

this spot. You heard they might be

37:16

getting supplies from this person. It's hard

37:18

to say what is genuine misdirection on

37:21

the part of the local population and

37:23

how much is this climate of real,

37:25

for fear and tangible anxiety

37:27

is really cutting through and clouding people's

37:30

judgement as to where the Kellys are

37:32

and where the police and the kind

37:34

of roving parties should be looking. And

37:37

of course, all this tension is going to come

37:39

to a head eventually, and Ned Kelly cannot be

37:42

on the run forever. So we're going to hear

37:44

the last part of our story. The

37:50

world's first ever feature film was not

37:52

shot in the Hollywood Hills, but

37:54

in the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia. This

37:57

early film, the story of the

37:59

Kelly Gang, is an hour long,

38:01

and its climax comes with Ned

38:03

Kelly's last stand. The

38:06

film is damaged and often impossible to

38:08

make out, but from behind the blots

38:10

and scratches emerges a scene that seems

38:12

like a fairy tale gone wrong. Police

38:15

with rifles are shooting at a figure

38:17

moving awkwardly towards them. This is Ned

38:20

Kelly. He's wearing a gigantic

38:22

heavy metal helmet and breastplate, with a

38:24

dirty long coat on top of it

38:26

all. He looks like

38:28

something out of Monty Python, but it

38:30

seems to be working, as under a

38:33

hail of bullets, the original Iron Man

38:35

marches on towards the police, returning their

38:37

fire as he goes. Then,

38:41

suddenly, Ned Kelly collapses against a

38:43

log, and the police pounce on

38:45

him, pinning him to the ground.

38:48

The blots and burned-out sections of the

38:50

film fill the screen once again. The

38:54

incredible thing about this section of the film is

38:56

that it is essentially, more or less, accurate. Ned

39:00

Kelly really did go down in a blaze of gunfire in a

39:02

suit of armour that he had made himself. Now,

39:06

there is more to come for Ned as he

39:08

was dragged off to be tried and executed. But

39:10

this is the abiding image of him that has

39:12

become emblazoned on the national memory of Australians and

39:14

people across the world. Given

39:19

this dramatic account, it's not hard to understand how this piece

39:21

of film became a national hero. Okay,

39:55

I am looking at a photo of

40:00

of the armour. I

40:03

don't really know where to begin because Anthony what

40:05

you just said there in the narrative about it

40:07

looking like Monty Python I think is completely fair

40:10

and accurate. It's, it

40:13

seems to be one

40:15

almost curved sheet around

40:18

the torso and then we've got

40:20

this really buckety helmet with two

40:22

eye slits cut and you've got

40:24

these shoulder pads I

40:26

think and then almost like

40:29

a little sort of modesty skirt going

40:31

on at the bottom which is an

40:33

extension of the torso armour

40:36

presumably you know to protect things in

40:38

lower down regions and it's remarkable

40:42

to me that this exists. Meg this is remarkable

40:44

where is this item now can people see it?

40:47

Yes so the original Kelly suit

40:49

of armour is one of the

40:51

prized items in the state library

40:53

Victoria there's a whole area dedicated

40:55

to it it's very carefully preserved

40:57

and restored but you're completely

41:00

right about the curved sheet of metal they

41:02

actually stole plows and then

41:04

refashioned them so in if you look

41:06

very closely at some of the images

41:08

you can actually see the stamp from

41:10

the brand of the plows that

41:12

they actually repurpose. It's also incredibly

41:15

heavy I think we

41:17

should really emphasize that it's

41:19

not very practical and as you've kind

41:21

of motioned through there's like a little

41:23

bit of a skirt area to protect

41:25

people's privates but your legs are completely

41:27

exposed and that's that became a real

41:30

issue that's one of the reasons why Ned

41:32

Kelly couldn't escape they just shot him in the

41:35

legs. This is a very

41:37

dramatic piece of history

41:40

and a piece of film that we're talking about there but

41:43

what do you think it tells us about

41:46

what the Kellys come

41:48

to mean to Australia

41:50

Australians and why has he

41:52

Ned Kelly and the family more generally been adopted

41:55

so wholeheartedly and emotionally actually because it's very

41:57

emotive this for a lot of people right?

42:00

What lies behind that, do you think? Yeah,

42:03

there are definitely a few things going

42:05

on there. The first is

42:07

some very strategic forgetting. So

42:09

we need for Ned Kelly to be a symbol

42:11

of the oppressed, fighting the oppressor.

42:13

We really need to forget that he is

42:15

a murderer, a mass murderer, in fact. He

42:18

killed police officers. And in

42:20

the lead up to the siege at Glen

42:22

Rowan, the shootout that we've been discussing, he

42:25

actually intended to kill more people. There was

42:27

a special police train that was traveling to

42:29

Glen Rowan, and he had the tracks pulled

42:31

up. So the idea was he wanted to

42:33

derail this whole train. And

42:35

it wasn't just police on this train. There

42:38

were civilians, there were photographers, there were at

42:40

least two women. The newspapers were really big

42:42

on emphasizing the fact there were ladies on

42:44

the train. So he actually

42:46

had the intention of killing more people.

42:49

And in this shootout as well, he had

42:51

hostages in this pub, and who also ended

42:53

up dying. And so

42:56

this is very conveniently either left out of

42:58

the Ned Kelly myth, or it's put to

43:01

the sidelines. We

43:03

justify, well, it's not his fault he was

43:05

forced into this situation. So

43:07

the first thing is strategic forgetting.

43:10

The second thing is the timing.

43:12

So Ned Kelly is actually one of the

43:15

last Bush Rangers in Australian history. Some people

43:17

say the last, he wasn't the last, but

43:20

he was executed in 1880. And

43:22

then by the time Federation comes

43:24

around in 1901, there's

43:27

this really unique moment where the new

43:30

Australian nation has been officially inaugurated and

43:32

people start looking for symbols. Who

43:34

is gonna represent our nation?

43:36

How do we define ourselves?

43:38

They needed something that kind

43:41

of showed something distinct, something

43:43

uniquely Australian, but also that

43:45

represented a connection to this

43:47

broader white male Anglo world.

43:49

And it should be said on record

43:51

that actually Australia being a white man's

43:54

country is one of the reasons that

43:56

the Australian colonies federated. Australia wanted to

43:58

control its own immigration law. and

44:00

one of the first laws that was

44:02

passed was the Immigration Restriction Act, which

44:04

did exactly what is implied. So the

44:07

Bush Ranger comes in as this really

44:09

unique symbol. The real threat of Bush

44:11

Ranging had ended largely with Ned Kelly

44:13

in 1880. Bush Rangers became something of

44:16

myth, of memory, they could be romanticized

44:18

because they weren't that threat. You weren't

44:20

going to encounter one in your travels.

44:23

And so then this really

44:25

rose-tinted glasses view of the

44:27

Bush Ranger as a representative

44:29

of justice as a

44:31

force of this rough and ready, raw

44:34

form of justice could actually

44:36

come to represent the nation writ large.

44:39

And so this is the reason why

44:41

Ned Kelly comes in to being as

44:43

this real national symbol at this pivotal

44:45

moment. And I should also say, I

44:47

mean, in my own interest, this is my research area, but

44:49

I look at Bush Rangers who are people of color. So

44:52

there were First Nations Bush Rangers, there were

44:54

Chinese, African-American, the fact

44:56

that we commemorate and celebrate white

44:59

Bush Ranging men like Ned Kelly,

45:01

and not these other Bush Ranges.

45:04

It's not an accident. It is

45:06

a very deliberate choice. And it

45:08

is because the Bush Ranging myth

45:10

comes about at this pivotal moment

45:12

where white Australia is really being

45:15

born. And so this is

45:17

the reason why we have Bush Ranges

45:19

as a national symbol. But to go

45:21

to your point, Antony, you're completely right

45:23

in that there's this emotional connection to

45:25

Bush Ranges today. If you were to

45:27

ask the average Australian why they celebrate

45:29

Bush Ranges like Ned Kelly, no

45:31

one would mention race. They would

45:33

say that he was representing the underdog. They

45:35

would say that he was a great guy.

45:37

They would say that they thought that the

45:39

police were out for him. So the

45:44

thing with symbols, especially symbols

45:46

from history, is that over

45:48

time, they get emptied of their substances,

45:50

real people as messy, complex people who

45:52

have, you know, good and bad in

45:55

them. And they become this kind of

45:57

empty signifier who can be filled with

45:59

what ever people want. And so people

46:01

who actually hold a lot of power

46:04

in society can identify with Ned Kelly

46:06

just as much as people who are

46:08

lower working class and actually oppressed

46:11

or marginalized in different ways. There

46:13

are First Nations people in the

46:15

Northern Territory today who actually have

46:17

incorporated Ned Kelly into their dreaming

46:19

stories. So they're kind of

46:21

their origin stories, their stories of connection

46:23

and spirituality. They see Ned Kelly as

46:25

a resistance fighter. They see him as

46:27

someone fighting back against colonization. And

46:30

in these same stories, Captain Cook, who

46:33

so-called discovered Australia, and I'm putting that

46:35

in Invertercom is, is actually seen as

46:37

a symbol of colonization, of the colonizer.

46:40

He is the kind of evil character

46:42

in these stories. And

46:44

I think this is just one example,

46:46

but it goes to show that there

46:48

is a real expansive capacity for all

46:51

sorts of Australians to engage with the

46:53

Ned Kelly story in myriad different ways.

46:56

But what I find particularly interesting is

46:58

how that kind of different

47:01

interpretation stacks up against what we know

47:03

of the history of who this man

47:05

was as a person. Meg,

47:08

it's been so wonderful to talk to

47:10

you. And just before we leave listeners

47:12

with that brilliant rundown

47:14

of the way that Ned

47:16

Kelly has shapeshifted throughout history, I want

47:19

to ask you about your interest in

47:21

banditry and the history of banditry more

47:23

generally. And is

47:25

it that process you described,

47:28

that emptying of substance from

47:30

these historical figures and that

47:32

transformation into symbols, is

47:34

that what interests you about

47:37

people who live, commit crimes and

47:39

die on the edge of society?

47:42

Is that what interests us all? Is

47:44

that romanticization what draws us to these

47:46

figures, do you think? I mean, I

47:48

can only, I guess, fake cook 100%

47:50

for myself, but

47:53

I am interested in bandits because of that

47:55

movement between different spaces. I mean, my book

47:58

is called Boundary Crosses for a Rich. reason,

48:01

they cross boundaries. And in doing so,

48:03

they actually bring to light a lot

48:05

of their flaws, their fragility, the porousness

48:07

of different boundaries. So many things we've

48:09

come to think of as certain, as

48:12

fixed, as immutable, that history had to

48:14

happen the way that it happened. That's

48:17

really undercut when looking at

48:19

figures like bandits, especially the

48:21

very profound sense of fear,

48:24

uncertainty, the idea that society itself

48:26

might be undercut, the idea that

48:28

there might be uprisings, as there

48:30

were concerns of in the early

48:32

convict period with convict bush ranging,

48:34

for instance. So we

48:36

really see bandits as a way

48:39

to kind of access these

48:41

hidden histories, these counter histories, these moments

48:43

of rupture. And that rupture can really

48:46

tell us something really unique about past

48:48

societies and different worlds that we wouldn't

48:50

otherwise have access to. Well,

48:53

I suggest that we all run out and

48:56

get a copy of Boundary Crossers, the hidden

48:58

history of Australia's other bush rangers by Dr.

49:00

Meg Foster. Meg, it has been a real

49:02

pleasure to listen to this with

49:05

you guiding us through. It's just been so

49:07

fascinating and enlightening, I think, and has brought

49:09

things into this history that people feel they

49:11

might have known a little bit about, but

49:14

have brought things in from the edge like

49:16

the inclusion of the First Nations people, which

49:18

I think people so easily overlook. So thank

49:20

you so much for sharing this history with

49:22

us. You can find other episodes in our

49:24

back catalogue wherever you get your podcasts. But

49:27

until next time, thank you so much for

49:29

listening and sleep tight. Now's

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