0:01

I don't want my medical device to kill

0:03

me because somebody hacked it. They can send

0:06

wireless alerts. So if they detect

0:08

a problem, they can send it.

0:12

Hello

0:12

and welcome to Insight Story,

0:14

tech trends unpacked for business leaders. The

0:17

podcast that gives you the insight you need

0:19

to make the right strategic decisions about

0:21

how to use the right tech for your organization.

0:24

Brought to you by Kaspersky,

0:25

the cybersecurity specialists. This

0:27

time we're asking

0:29

how can you safely get the benefits

0:31

of the industrial Internet of Things?

0:38

Now, the industrial Internet of Things, or IOT,

0:40

is the place where the Internet meets industry.

0:43

Smart devices sharing data to help companies

0:45

make better decisions. But what

0:47

about keeping those systems secure? In a bit,

0:50

I'll be talking to two people about exactly

0:52

that. Chris Kubeska from HyperSec,

0:55

whose interest in digital security started

0:57

when she hacked into the US Department of Justice

0:59

when she was 10. God, I was playing the

1:01

recorder at that age. And Alison

1:04

Peace from Medtronic, who is responsible

1:06

for helping thousands of hearts to

1:07

keep on beating. But first, to make

1:10

sure we understand what we mean when we say I-I-O-T,

1:13

we have our own smart device.

1:16

I am Dolly, your insight assistant.

1:19

Hello Dolly. Thank you for coming by. Hello

1:21

Susie. Now this time, I need to know

1:24

more about the industrial Internet of Things,

1:26

the I-I-O-T. I-I-O-T

1:28

refers to any network of Internet connected

1:30

machines that share information.

1:33

Sensors and devices collect real-time

1:35

data from Internet connected physical

1:38

assets. Data is uploaded

1:40

and analysed. This tech is

1:42

used in sectors like farming, manufacturing,

1:46

healthcare and transport. So

1:48

this is a lot more than your smart fridge being

1:50

able to tell you that you're out of milk.

1:53

The principle is the same, but I-I-O-T

1:56

is at a bigger scale. Devices

1:58

can share data in real time. This

2:01

can all happen

2:03

without a human. So

2:12

it's about efficient use of resources? Yes,

2:15

and also safety. IIOT

2:18

can check if a machine gets too hot

2:20

or if there's a gas leak in a factory.

2:23

It helps prevent accidents. So

2:25

talking of safety, what happens if someone

2:27

hacks into one of these systems? IIOT

2:30

systems must be extremely secure.

2:33

Use in question to protect data

2:35

and have security teachers work strong

2:38

passwords, legal and acting, and

2:40

follow-up to keep hackers out. Alright,

2:44

have you ever been hacked? Thank you

2:46

for your concern, but I have extensive

2:48

safety mechanisms in place. I

2:50

am very secure by design. I'm

2:54

very glad to hear it. Thank you for your help. Goodbye. So

2:59

here to talk more about getting the most out of

3:01

the IOT and doing it as securely

3:03

as possible, we have Kris Kubezka.

3:06

She's a computer security researcher and cyber

3:09

warfare specialist who no longer

3:11

hacks into those government departments unless

3:13

they ask her to. She has provided

3:16

essential support to many companies and countries,

3:18

including getting the Saudi company Aramco's

3:21

network back up and running after it was

3:23

hit by one of the world's most devastating Shamoon

3:25

attacks. That's an aggressive malware

3:28

virus. She's now based in the Netherlands

3:30

and is CEO of HyperSec, a

3:32

security firm she founded in 2015,

3:35

and the author of Hack the World with OSINT,

3:38

designed to help companies protect their systems.

3:41

Hello, Kris. Hello, everyone, and thank you

3:43

so much. This is wonderful. And

3:45

Alison Peace, who is patient management

3:47

operations manager for UK and Ireland

3:49

at Medtronic. They're a global developer

3:52

and producer of medical devices and therapies

3:54

such as insulin pumps, pacemakers

3:56

and implantable defibrillators. Their

3:59

equipment is already. making full use of this

4:01

kind of connectivity. Hello, Alison.

4:03

Hi, thanks for having me. Happy to be

4:05

here today. So starting with you, Chris, your

4:08

focus is on the safety and security of networks.

4:10

But before we talk more about that, what kinds

4:12

of industries are really making the most use of this technology?

4:15

One of the industries that is doing this is,

4:18

for example, the maritime industry. So

4:20

if you want to know, should

4:23

that ship go through that storm to save

4:25

fuel, or where the whole crack up,

4:27

they now have IIOT sensors

4:29

that are placed on the hull to report

4:32

back. Also space, big

4:34

into space, and space is actually propelling

4:36

us towards the normalization of

4:39

usage of things like 6G and 7G.

4:41

And 6G has direct

4:43

application to in-body

4:46

internet of things, medical devices, from

4:49

nuclear power plants, water, agriculture,

4:52

as you had mentioned. And these types

4:54

of things can unfortunately be manipulated

4:56

for nefarious purposes,

4:59

because I have to put my evil devil horns

5:01

on for the cyber warfare part. It's a very

5:03

interesting space. Pretty widely varied

5:06

uses of industrial IOT. And you were

5:08

talking about medicals. So turning to you, Alison,

5:10

tell us a bit more about Medtronic and the devices

5:12

you make and the kind of data that you're providing.

5:15

The part of Medtronic that I work is cardiac rhythm

5:17

management. So these cardiac devices help

5:20

people with slow hearts, with fast hearts,

5:22

with hearts that may

5:24

stop abruptly, you know, like a cardiac

5:26

arrest. In the UK alone, there's

5:29

probably more than 100,000 patients

5:32

in a year receiving some sort

5:34

of implanted cardiac device. These

5:36

patients have then a lifetime

5:38

of constant hospital checks. So

5:40

you can sort of start to sense the burden that

5:42

that places on the healthcare services. So

5:45

remote

5:45

monitoring for cardiac devices came

5:47

about almost 20 years

5:50

ago, but in a very basic form. The

5:52

devices are now more efficient, they can send

5:55

wireless alerts. So if they detect

5:57

a problem, they can send it, the patients

5:59

are better.

5:59

look tester, the outcomes are better, you

6:02

know, they use healthcare less because

6:04

they don't need to go into hospital. But what's

6:06

also essential is, as Chris alluded to,

6:08

that these things are safe. You

6:10

know, you're no longer keeping the patient data

6:13

within the

6:13

four walls of the hospital. So, Metronica

6:16

really giving us at the forefront of the

6:18

telemedicine revolution. But that security

6:20

is quite important. So, turning to you, Chris,

6:22

let's talk about some of the security measures

6:25

that smart system because it's involving people,

6:27

access control, encryption, obviously very

6:30

important with those devices. What

6:32

do you think of the focus areas for anyone setting

6:34

up this kind of system to be aware of from the

6:36

security side? Well, understand

6:39

that your procurement department is going to be

6:41

looking for the best deal, which is going to be the least

6:43

expensive deal. Your attorneys,

6:46

both in-house and externally, may

6:48

not have enough experience specifically

6:51

with cyber or privacy. And that's quite important

6:53

with medical. The best deal might

6:56

mean that someone didn't look at the

6:58

fact that you didn't require an annual

7:01

report done by an external, say,

7:03

penetration company or, you know, risk company,

7:06

whatever might apply into

7:08

that so that you know what you're getting from your supplier.

7:11

A lot of the IoT and industrial

7:13

IoT systems, they will come

7:15

with an older version of, say, Linux

7:17

kernel. And what this means is you're

7:19

getting an older operating system that

7:22

doesn't have all of the various security

7:24

settings you would want out of the box. And

7:26

if you don't know how to apply those things, or

7:28

if the company that you bought it from doesn't have

7:31

a secure way to update

7:33

the software because, you know, things change, things

7:36

get tweaked. Well, same thing you have to do with your

7:38

security settings and also your privacy

7:40

settings because the laws are changing.

7:43

These are some of the risks. Know what you're buying

7:45

so that you can actually plan ahead

7:48

and mitigate and minimize for those risks. Some

7:51

of these technologies we're talking about, both

7:53

medical and other industries, they've never

7:55

been placed on the internet, have they? They haven't even

7:57

been designed for the internet world. particular

8:00

risk for those types of companies, they need to

8:02

invest more. The internet in and

8:04

of itself was not meant for the internet in and

8:06

of itself, how it is right now. This

8:09

is a good question for Alison. What

8:12

are these additional things that you have to put

8:14

in place for devices that

8:17

are now fitting in and trying

8:19

to innovate and help human beings but

8:21

weren't meant in particular for these types

8:23

of systems to connect to?

8:25

The devices themselves, they're completely

8:27

different now to those devices that I talked about 20

8:30

years ago. It's been important to incorporate

8:32

an

8:32

encryption module into

8:35

those devices to make

8:36

sure that actually there's no readable data

8:38

from the devices. The devices themselves aren't connecting

8:40

to the internet. They're using a pass-through,

8:43

a monitor or an app. The data

8:45

that's in the device

8:46

is encrypted and the data

8:48

that goes through the best-side

8:50

monitor or the app is

8:52

pass-through. Someone was using a patient app

8:55

and they lost their

8:55

mobile phone. They're not going to find anything

8:57

on that phone. The clinician accesses

9:00

the data through a secure website, password

9:02

protected and also in

9:04

all those different steps, whether it be in the

9:06

device, whether it be in the patient app and

9:09

then at the secure server where the clinician

9:11

is accessing the data, it needs to be

9:13

as secure as it can be. I know, Chris, there's

9:15

people like you that you hope

9:18

to not be able to hack into the systems and

9:20

companies like Natronic obviously

9:22

have similar experts

9:25

that are always trying to challenge the

9:27

things that are produced. And how do you help the

9:29

customer, the end customer, the patient have

9:32

that trust that what they're putting into their body,

9:34

sometimes physical devices, is

9:36

trustworthy? How do you communicate

9:38

that back to them? I think just reminding

9:40

them, you know, we are not in charge of

9:43

what the hospitals do. We supply these services,

9:46

but what's really important to mention

9:48

and the same, I'm sure, is true of many countries

9:50

that can only speak for the UK and Ireland here where

9:52

we have national health services

9:55

with really strict controls on what

9:58

third parties they'll engage with, what systems they can use. and they

10:00

use, there's all these rules and regulations and

10:02

things that you have to have in place in order to

10:05

partner with hospitals. And if you

10:07

don't have it, you're told to go away

10:10

and come back when you've got it. Sure. And as Alison says,

10:12

Chris, these standards are very important.

10:14

So what can companies do regarding testing

10:17

and standards that they should be expecting from third parties

10:20

to make the devices more secure? Some

10:23

of the things that Advise Incorporated

10:25

is looking at the contract.

10:28

It should fit a minimal amount

10:31

of encryption as per the date

10:33

of this contract. So you're not specifying

10:36

it's got to be this number, that number,

10:38

something technical, but

10:41

what the requirements

10:43

and what the standards are at that time. So that

10:45

when you renew, the expectation

10:47

is to still keep those standards.

10:49

Little things like that. Obviously,

10:52

ensuring your suppliers are also

10:55

practicing good data security and

10:57

data privacy because you don't want your intellectual

11:00

property somehow being waylaid

11:02

between the factory floor and

11:04

someone else getting a chip set. Even in the space

11:07

industry and the aviation industry,

11:09

they have found fake parts and it's

11:12

a big problem. So these are some of the other

11:14

things that a board might not think

11:16

about, which would be

11:17

quite damaging to the reputation. Definitely

11:20

engage with people like

11:22

me. There's other groups like the

11:24

biohacking group, which

11:26

goes

11:26

around to various different conferences.

11:28

So those are some of the

11:30

things as well as ensure

11:33

that you have enough

11:35

of a relationship with the supplier that if something

11:38

comes out, if someone contacts

11:40

you and says, hey, we can do this, that and

11:42

the other and you're like, uh-oh, be prepared,

11:46

have a sufficient responsible

11:48

disclosure policy. For example, in the Netherlands,

11:50

it's a requirement for most companies to

11:52

have that. That's not international,

11:55

but have that preparation and know that you can

11:57

contact your supplier. You,

12:00

Alison, there's many stats out

12:02

there about the huge volume

12:04

of IoT devices out there in the world. 50 billion

12:08

is one stat and many terabytes

12:10

of data being processed all the time. In

12:13

the case of Medtronic, where does that data

12:15

actually go and how are you protecting it?

12:17

Obviously, Medtronic is a US company.

12:20

I mean, it's

12:20

a global company, but its home is in the US.

12:22

And what was really important when we started

12:25

using remote monitoring,

12:26

because the server at the time

12:28

was in the US. And as we've talked about,

12:30

there's different data,

12:31

privacy and security laws, you know,

12:33

when you travel globally, there's different

12:35

sort of rules and regulations. And what

12:38

wouldn't have flown at all is

12:40

coming to Europe with, we're going to send

12:42

all this data to the US and it's going to sit there.

12:45

So there was a lot of investment in having

12:47

a European housing of that data.

12:50

And Chris, turning to you, you've talked about some of

12:52

the big challenges that are out there with the

12:54

industrial IoT systems. But what's the best

12:56

way for companies to actually address these

12:58

challenges? And where could they get some

13:01

advice

13:01

from trusted

13:02

parties? There are a few different

13:05

trusted parties that you can try to

13:07

look at. Try to set up a relationship

13:10

with the country that

13:12

your main operations are with. And what I

13:14

mean by that is in case there is some sort

13:16

of cyber issue, you

13:18

can contact what's called a Computer

13:20

Emergency Response team in the

13:23

United Kingdom. They can actually

13:25

put you in touch if you don't already have

13:27

that relationship

13:28

with some of the providers

13:30

of various trusted services when

13:33

these types of cybersecurity incidents occur.

13:36

It's good to go,

13:37

hi, I'm company Zed

13:40

or Z for the American listeners. And

13:42

this is our type of operation. Could we

13:45

set up a meeting to know what websites

13:47

we'd be looking at for alerts? What should

13:50

we do if something happens, etc,

13:52

etc. That is one of the biggest things

13:54

because that can open doors if you don't

13:57

really know where to look. But try to

13:59

do this ahead of time. Also, your lawyer

14:02

will suddenly become your best friend. I

14:04

know that's not a common saying, but

14:06

your lawyer, even though they may not have

14:09

experience with cyber, they will have colleagues

14:11

that they can put the word out to in a private

14:13

way.

14:14

You talked about a lot of different industries that you've

14:17

worked in using IoT. Do

14:19

you think the technology is actually moving faster than

14:21

the law in this case, or are we keeping

14:23

a good pace? Oh, yeah, definitely

14:25

moving faster than the law. But that's what

14:27

you get from technological innovation.

14:30

Although it is moving at a fast pace, there

14:33

are some guidelines, frameworks,

14:36

and more and more governments and industry

14:38

are aware of these potential risks. So

14:41

the likelihood of something terrible,

14:44

terrible happening, lessons and lessons and

14:46

lessons, we're actually tackling

14:48

this problem. And so, Alison, Medtronic's a

14:50

global company, and that means you're dealing with

14:52

a lot of different rules and regulations

14:55

when it comes to your suppliers and the data.

14:57

So standardization plays a role, but also

15:00

what in the security industry, of course, secure by design.

15:02

So building that into the

15:05

start of the project. Of course, you

15:07

know, we can come out with national

15:10

legislation that says, I want

15:12

the data to come from your device in this

15:14

format.

15:15

And actually, our devices are designed to send

15:17

it in this format. It even is beyond

15:20

even the security of the data. It's

15:22

often the format of it. At the start,

15:24

those first wireless devices that we

15:27

launched almost 20 years

15:29

ago now are

15:30

not the wireless devices that we sell

15:32

now. You

15:32

know, everything's changed about them, even

15:34

the method of communication, and not

15:36

just the data security,

15:38

but also efficiency on that device.

15:40

So Chris, what are your thoughts on what those selling

15:43

industrial reality devices, what should they

15:45

be doing as part of their best practice? I

15:48

think they should start applying

15:50

what I would call easy standards. We had

15:53

a workshop at the United Nations

15:55

Internet Governance Forum about this with

15:57

Internet of Things and industrial Internet of Things.

15:59

It's hard for both consumers and companies

16:02

to know, does it meet a minimum

16:04

level of standards for security?

16:06

Can it be updated, for example, all

16:09

the way up to, say, something you would use for

16:11

medical stuff? This would be the highest standard.

16:14

I don't want my medical device to kill me because

16:16

somebody hacked it. And we had proposed

16:19

something as easy as, say, a traffic light system

16:21

or something like that so that

16:23

you know, all right, it meets at

16:25

least this minimum standard. It

16:27

might cost 10 euro more, but you

16:30

know that the risk is

16:32

probably more

16:32

minimized. So I would love to

16:35

see as an industry group for

16:37

some of those things

16:38

to start occurring.

16:39

So, Alison, just turning to you finally,

16:42

you talked about some very exciting stuff that's happening

16:44

right now at Medtronic, but what are your plans for

16:47

the near future? I mentioned a patient

16:49

app.

16:50

This is new to us, you know, and at the moment

16:52

is with Apple and Samsung. And also

16:55

the population will see growth. I

16:57

think 10 years ago, maybe 3% of

17:00

people over 65 had a smartphone, whereas

17:02

then 10 years on, they're the people who were 55 before,

17:04

you know, and now it's more sort of 80, 90%. It's

17:08

the healthcare outcomes of patients that are more

17:10

engaged in their healthcare

17:12

with always awareness

17:15

of how secure we need to be, obviously.

17:17

Great. So we've had a great conversation today. Thank you for

17:19

joining me. We always like to give an insight story,

17:22

a final thought, that golden nugget

17:24

of insight. So if you were going to give

17:26

a piece of advice to perhaps a CEO

17:29

of a company who's thinking of investing in the first

17:31

time for industrial IoT or

17:33

upgrading their systems, what

17:35

advice would you give them to start with? Let's start with

17:37

you, Chris. Well, I would say prepare

17:40

for the worst, but plan for the best. Think

17:43

about the different risks that are going to be associated

17:46

with this. From a business standpoint,

17:48

it's all about risk. Hackers use the term

17:51

exploitation, so do people with MBAs.

17:54

It's just a different way of thinking. So

17:56

start incorporating these types of things.

17:59

Hey, what would... the plan if this

18:01

happened. It doesn't have to be super long. It

18:03

can be incorporated directly into your current disaster

18:05

recovery plan. Speak with your suppliers.

18:08

If you don't feel comfortable enough

18:11

with speaking about

18:12

cybersecurity and privacy with your supplier,

18:14

you need to look for a new supplier.

18:16

Take a look at companies

18:19

and suppliers who participate

18:22

in different types of security conferences

18:25

or have their products looked

18:27

at by groups that do various

18:30

hacking villages. And if they're actively

18:32

looking at these things, that gives a good

18:34

deal of credence. And what about you,

18:36

Alison? What's the top level advice

18:39

you might give to a CEO investing in IoT

18:41

for the first time? I couldn't agree

18:44

more with Chris and those points. And obviously,

18:46

speaking from the other side of it, as a third

18:48

party supplier to the healthcare

18:50

industry, I think that partnership, that

18:52

understanding that if there's some

18:55

standardization of what is required,

18:57

and it's very clearly communicated

18:59

in that partnership, and we can comply quite

19:02

easily, open communication,

19:05

clear guidance and criteria of

19:07

what's needed is essential.

19:12

Big thank you to our guests, Chris Kubeska

19:14

from HyperSec and Alison Peace from Medtronic.

19:17

They're very useful insights into the industrial

19:19

IoT and keeping it secure. If

19:23

you're enjoying these kinds of insights, we have

19:25

many stories about the latest business tech

19:27

in secure futures. It's Kaspersky's

19:30

digital magazine about innovative top,

19:32

innovative leaders. And we've got articles

19:35

about new technologies in manufacturing

19:37

like digital twins, a video

19:39

and another interview with Chris again about the internet

19:42

of things and cyber threats in space, and

19:44

articles from last season's insight story,

19:46

including blockchain and digital truth.

19:49

You can find the link to secure futures in the

19:51

insight story show notes. The

19:56

fresh developments in the digital world are exciting,

19:59

but as new technology arrives, so

20:01

do new threats to our online safety. Providing

20:04

protection against those kind of threats is,

20:06

of course, what Kaspersky is all about. So

20:09

to give us some insight into the cybersecurity

20:11

challenges of the industrial Internet of Things and

20:13

how to keep it secure, I'm joined

20:16

by Dr. Armin Hazbini, Head

20:18

of Research Center, Middle East, Turkey and

20:20

Africa for Kaspersky's Global Research and

20:22

Analysis team, known as Great. They

20:25

spend all their time uncovering and understanding

20:27

the cyber threats that face us. So

20:29

Armin, give us an idea about the scale of

20:32

industrial IoT at the moment.

20:33

Well, according to a recent Kaspersky

20:36

study, more than 60% of

20:38

businesses maintain and run IoT

20:41

solutions for their own business and for their

20:43

clients. And a lot of these organizations

20:45

say that their IoT systems are not fully

20:47

protected. Close to half of the businesses

20:50

say that. And considering

20:52

that everyone's biggest concern is not

20:54

getting hacked, not having a breach or a leak

20:56

of data, not having the operations crippled

20:59

or destroyed. Well, security

21:01

requirements need to be in place for everyone.

21:04

Right. Though this is still not the case

21:06

and cybersecurity technologies are still

21:09

emerging on this front, specifically

21:11

for IoT devices and industrial

21:14

IoT devices. When we talk about

21:16

industrial IoT devices, we talk critical

21:18

infrastructure, water, power, energy

21:21

or others, and a shutdown or

21:24

a damage could cause a lot of harm. Sadly,

21:27

though, as per one of our surveys as

21:29

well, a third of these organizations

21:32

blame a lack of security or

21:34

a lack of budget for their inability to

21:36

deploy cybersecurity requirements for

21:38

all of their IoT systems. And

21:40

that is definitely a concern. Like

21:43

it makes us ask questions. If it

21:45

is not the resources or the employees, and

21:48

if it is not the budget, then what is

21:50

it? Is it the strategy? Is

21:52

it convincing top management? And questions

21:56

still do not have answers for many

21:58

organizations, sadly.

21:59

So what recommendations, if

22:02

we're talking not necessarily to a CSO,

22:04

an experienced person, but more to someone

22:06

on the board, what would you recommend that they

22:08

should be asking the questions of their IT

22:10

security team to really make sure these technologies

22:13

are safe?

22:13

Well, we should start with asking

22:15

technology vendors, because

22:17

technology vendors are still racing

22:19

for features and ignoring cybersecurity

22:22

requirements, like necessity requirements.

22:25

And then when a solution is demonstrated out of the

22:27

box, it's magnificent as a butterfly.

22:30

However, once implemented and confronting

22:32

real-life scenarios, it's vulnerable as

22:35

a butterfly as well, sadly. I

22:37

think on our side, we believe in technology that is

22:39

secure by design, secure in development

22:41

and in implementation. That

22:44

makes attacks worthless for

22:46

attackers, for criminals. On

22:48

our side, we have our Kaspersky OS and

22:51

the cyber immunity strategies. And

22:53

we've worked on a number of projects like railways,

22:56

interference protection or protecting power

22:58

grid vehicle charging devices. The

23:00

challenge starts on the top

23:03

level in each organization. It

23:05

becomes a priority on the top level, and

23:07

then it becomes translated into

23:09

policies, guidelines and practical methods

23:12

and methodologies used by technology

23:14

vendors and the operators inside

23:17

the organization, which is offering this IoT system

23:19

or solution.

23:22

Thank you very much to Amin. If

23:25

you're in the manufacturing, industrial or critical

23:27

infrastructure business, it really

23:29

is critical to make security a top

23:31

priority. Kaspersky ICS

23:33

CERT offers unique services in industrial

23:36

automation systems and Internet of Things

23:38

cybersecurity.

23:39

On the website, you can download the latest

23:41

free research reports and get advice about

23:43

protecting your industrial

23:44

enterprise. Check the link

23:46

in the show

23:47

notes. That's

23:51

it for this edition of In My Story, Tech Trends

23:53

and Past brought to you by Kaspersky. Search

23:56

for us wherever

23:56

you get your podcasts and click follow

23:58

so you don't miss an episode.

23:59

Coming up in this series we'll

24:01

be diving into the ethics of AI, exploring

24:04

how quantum computing is going to change everything

24:07

and talking about digital transformation.

24:10

How do you integrate technology into your business

24:12

and get a real understanding of it? If

24:15

you like using your hearing, please leave us a rating

24:17

and review. I'm sorry. It really

24:19

helps people find us and get the benefits of

24:22

all this great insight. If you

24:24

want to get ahead, you really can't afford

24:26

to miss it. Till next time. Goodbye.

24:29

Goodbye. Oh, hello. I'm

24:31

so sorry, Dot, about asking if you've been hacked.

24:34

That is OK.

24:34

I mean, it's like everything to say.

24:37

And you can ask the industry itself.

24:47

Just before I go, I wanted to tell

24:49

you about two other great series from Kaspersky

24:52

that you might like.

24:53

Fast Forward by Tomorrow Unlocked

24:55

explores the past, present and future of the

24:57

technologies around us. Season

24:59

two includes a very cool episode about

25:01

how digital twins can improve your personal

25:03

health. Plus, if you want to hear the latest

25:05

news and views from the world of cybersecurity,

25:08

join Jeff Esposito in the US

25:10

and David Buxton in the UK for Kaspersky

25:13

Transatlantic. They chat security

25:15

around current tech news and how

25:16

to low down all the latest native reaches.

25:18

You'll find links to both

25:20

these series in our show notes, but you'll also

25:23

find them wherever you get your podcasts. So

25:25

track them down and click follow so you don't

25:27

miss an episode.