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0:02
Welcome to Money Matters , the podcast
0:04
that focuses on how to use the money you have
0:07
, make the money you need and save
0:09
the money you want . Now here
0:11
is your host , ms Kim Chapman
0:13
.
0:14
Welcome to a new edition of Money Matters . I am
0:16
your host , Kim Chapman , do you play
0:18
the lottery , hoping to win the jackpot
0:20
of a lifetime ? Picture this
0:23
you've just checked your numbers and bam
0:25
, you're a winner . You're on tight
0:27
because winning the lottery or coming into
0:29
sudden wealth is just the beginning of
0:31
what can be a wild and crazy ride
0:34
. What should you do first ? How
0:36
do you avoid becoming one of those statistics
0:38
that say seven out of ten people
0:40
who win the lottery become broke in
0:43
just a few years ? That's
0:45
crazy . You wait all these years
0:47
, you play the lottery , you win millions
0:49
and you could go broke
0:51
. Well , we're going to make sure that doesn't
0:53
happen . Joining me today is
0:56
attorney Kurt Panouses to discuss how to navigate a lottery winning
0:59
or sudden death . I'm sorry , not
1:01
sudden death , sudden wealth . Thank
1:04
you for joining me , Kurt .
1:05
Good morning . Thank you , Kimberly . I'm glad
1:07
to be here with you today .
1:09
Tell us a little bit about you , your practice
1:11
and how did you transition into focusing
1:13
on basically navigating
1:16
, winning big
1:18
winfalls and people that come into sudden
1:20
wealth . What's an unusual focus
1:23
for an attorney .
1:24
Yes , and I'm very
1:26
lucky . You know you talked about winning the lottery
1:28
. I just happened to do
1:32
something at a certain time in my
1:34
life , my career , that just allowed
1:36
me to focus in on it . So my
1:38
background really started out County
1:41
major that became a CPA , worked
1:43
for seven years in public accounting , the
1:45
last couple of years or with a firm called Price
1:48
Waterhouse , one of the what was called a big egg
1:50
firm , a CPA firm just doing tax work for
1:52
them , and I developed
1:54
a sense of humor and you can't really be a
1:56
CPA with a sense of humor . So
1:59
I went into law school and came
2:01
out and practiced law for basically
2:04
35 years now , and
2:06
over the last five years I
2:09
kept getting calls from people who
2:11
had won lotteries because I posted
2:14
some of these wins on my website
2:16
. And then it turned into well
2:18
, maybe I should focus in on it . And
2:21
the next thing I knew I was
2:23
being brought in as a I
2:25
guess , an expert , for lack of a better term
2:27
. But we have to remember X is an unknown
2:29
quantity and Pert is a drip
2:31
of water in Greek , so but anyway
2:33
, I was brought in to
2:35
help people and I was brought in
2:37
to be an expert with ABC News
2:39
and NBC on the Today Show
2:41
and all that . And as I posted these
2:44
interviews , I found
2:46
out that I was getting calls all over the country
2:48
to help people and I just said
2:50
, well , maybe I should focus in on this . No one else
2:52
is doing it . So I've kind of made it the focus
2:54
of my practice now and , even though
2:56
I'm based in Florida , I
2:59
help people all over the country that
3:01
have major lottery wins and
3:03
basically I'm there and my focus is
3:06
to make sure that they set up a
3:08
plan . This
3:10
is so important for winners today
3:12
to have a plan in place . We
3:15
just got done with watching a Super
3:17
Bowl on TV and I can guarantee
3:19
you both coaches had a plan that all
3:21
their players bought into . And
3:23
it's the same thing with going to the lottery
3:25
office to claim one of these big tickets . You need
3:27
to have a plan and that plan needs
3:30
to have some tax influence . That plan
3:32
needs to have some legal influence and
3:34
that plan certainly needs to know who the individuals
3:36
are . And as a state planning
3:38
probate attorney for all
3:40
those years , I realized I developed
3:42
a lot of those characteristics . There's
3:45
a wealth transfer In this case it's
3:47
coming from the state lottery and
3:49
you're trying to help an individual
3:51
decide who and his or her family
3:54
should also be involved , because taxes
3:56
are involved . This is
3:58
, I tell clients all the time
4:01
this is the single
4:03
biggest financial decision
4:05
you will ever make in your life and
4:07
you only have one chance at it . Generally
4:10
, because most people don't win the lottery twice
4:12
and I have had a couple clients that that's
4:14
happened to but basically
4:16
this is that big chance to do financial
4:19
planning , not only for your life but if done
4:21
correctly , if the amount is significant
4:24
enough , it will be for generations
4:26
to come . You can take care of your children and grandchildren
4:29
as well with one good
4:31
decision right now . And so having
4:33
the experience I found has
4:35
helped me get these people across
4:38
the finish line , get them into
4:40
the end zone in the fourth quarter or
4:42
an overtime to win this game
4:44
of life for them . And
4:46
so I put everything together the background
4:49
as an attorney , the background as a CPA
4:51
, accounting , tax and
4:53
what's nice about it is because of that
4:55
I am a one person
4:58
show . I don't need to bring in
5:00
an accountant to help us . I don't need
5:02
to bring in a law firm
5:04
to help us with the documents . I don't need to bring
5:06
in a tax attorney to help us with the
5:08
tax planning . I can look up
5:10
the lottery laws in the individual states , know
5:13
what we're supposed to do , put a plan together . It
5:15
takes two to three weeks to do this , but
5:18
we keep the circle of people that know very
5:20
, very small . And keeping the
5:22
circle small of who knows , and doing
5:25
it in an anonymous way which is really
5:27
my focus , I think , is the
5:29
best way and the only way to keep
5:31
people from financial ruin , because I think
5:33
anonymity is the key
5:36
in doing all this work , to
5:38
having a life after winning
5:40
the lottery . It may be somewhat
5:43
of a lonely life in the sense that you're
5:45
not going to be walking down the street saying , hey , I'm
5:48
the multi-millionaire , I'm doing this , but
5:51
you'll enjoy your life and we'll
5:54
try to do whatever we need to do to keep people
5:56
from understanding who
5:59
you are and how you came across your money
6:01
. Again , once
6:03
someone wins , there's the claiming
6:05
process and then it's
6:08
life after the claim . We
6:10
want to make sure that any houses that
6:12
we buy are in Land Trust so that no one knows
6:14
who the owner of the house is if they look it
6:16
up . All these things come into play
6:18
generation skipping , tax planning . Again
6:21
, I can handle all that stuff , or make
6:23
sure I at least review it for the client
6:25
, so that the client , who's never had experience
6:27
with this kind of wealth issue , knows
6:30
that hey , there's someone there in their court
6:32
helping them through the process . That's
6:35
what I want to be , is I want to be the quarterback
6:37
for these people and help them through
6:39
the Super Bowl and get them to win .
6:43
Let's take it back to just even the basics . You just
6:45
won the numbers and hopefully
6:47
you don't have a heart attack and pass out . But once
6:49
you realize that you could be a multi-millionaire
6:52
billionaire , what are the first steps
6:54
you should do after discovering that
6:56
you are going to win a large sum of money ?
7:01
That's the number one question for everyone
7:03
, the one thing that you
7:05
have to give some consideration to and I know
7:07
it's the hardest thing for someone that's
7:09
holding this little piece of paper in their hand Do
7:13
I sign the back of the ticket ? I
7:15
think that that's their first question . Every
7:17
single state lottery has on their
7:19
lottery information sign
7:22
the ticket , sign the ticket , sign the ticket . People
7:24
you talk to say sign the ticket . The
7:27
problem with that is is
7:29
that doesn't give me
7:31
, as the planner , the
7:33
ability to really do a deep
7:36
dive into the state lottery laws
7:38
of that particular state , to see what
7:40
the rules are , what the regulations are
7:42
, and then to talk to the individual
7:44
and say , hey , you want
7:46
a billion dollars . You're
7:48
probably not going to need a billion dollars
7:50
, even if you live a lavish lifestyle . So
7:54
who are you going to want to include ? They're
7:57
going to say , well , I have children , grandchildren , brothers
7:59
or sisters , parents , whatever . Then
8:02
what I like to do is I
8:04
like to , over a period of time
8:06
, keep asking them questions
8:08
to find out how serious
8:10
they are , what they really see
8:13
their life looking like a year
8:15
from now , after they have this wealth , so
8:17
that I could paint a picture , because
8:20
I want to have a clean slate so
8:23
that if I wanted to paint anything
8:25
on this canvas , I can do anything
8:27
. If they sign the name on the back of
8:29
the ticket immediately , that may
8:31
hinder what I want to do or what
8:33
I want to do for them . So I
8:36
tell people I know it's hard
8:38
, but please don't sign the back of the ticket
8:40
, don't mark the ticket in any way . Take
8:42
a good picture of the front of the ticket
8:45
and the back of the ticket , because that's all I
8:47
or anyone would ever need to help them . I
8:50
tell people , as corny as this may
8:52
be , maybe put the ticket next
8:54
to your face and take a selfie of your
8:56
face and the ticket so that way we can clearly read
8:58
the numbers that you had that particular
9:00
winning ticket in your possession on this
9:02
particular date February , march
9:05
, whatever the date might be that you had
9:07
the ticket in your hands and in possession and
9:09
then make a copy of the front and back of the ticket and put
9:11
the ticket in the safest place you know . I
9:14
say go to a financial institution
9:16
and put in a safe deposit box . Be careful
9:18
, because the paper is very thin . Depending
9:21
on what you do with the ticket , it could fall apart
9:23
. I've seen lots of issues with tickets
9:25
so . But I just say don't sign
9:27
the back of the ticket , take a copy , take
9:30
a picture , put the ticket in a safe place
9:32
, don't tell anyone and then
9:34
call some professional to help hopefully
9:36
me but call some professional to help you with
9:38
the process and go from there . If
9:40
you absolutely cannot live
9:43
with yourself and you have
9:45
to sign the name , I would say
9:47
leave room on the top of your
9:49
name , because most state lotteries allow
9:51
. They will take the first name on
9:53
the back of the ticket . So write your name very
9:55
small on the back of the ticket , on the lower
9:58
part of it , so that way the attorney
10:00
can put all the basic information depending
10:02
on how you're going to claim it . Again , I
10:05
like to take a look at the Lottery
10:07
Act of the state , look
10:09
at the laws of the state . I like
10:11
to look at who the client
10:14
is thinking about helping , because
10:16
they only have one chance at this . So
10:18
I want to paint the right picture for them , put
10:20
the plan together . Again
10:22
, I look at something I kind of call it goals
10:25
on results oriented . So
10:28
that's why I asked them where do you want
10:30
to be a year from now ? How do you see your life
10:32
a year from now , and so
10:34
I want to incorporate that in . So I like
10:36
a blank slate on the back . So first
10:39
thing I tell people don't sign
10:41
the ticket . Make a copy , have a , take a picture
10:43
of you and your face holding the
10:45
ticket next to you and put the ticket in
10:47
a safe place and then try to keep
10:49
the circle of people that knows as
10:51
small as possible and start
10:53
thinking about where you want to
10:55
see your life a year from now . And that's
10:58
really what an attorney should be helping
11:00
you with .
11:01
You mentioned not to tell anybody . You
11:03
know I'm pretty good at keeping a secret , but I
11:05
cannot imagine how
11:07
hard it would be to just walk around
11:09
with that information in my head . So is there ? If
11:12
I'm married , should I ? Am I
11:14
even required to tell my spouse ? Or
11:16
are there people you're required to tell ? And
11:18
are there people maybe that are just red flags
11:20
? You definitely should not .
11:23
Well , you don't have to tell anyone . First of
11:25
all . That's number one . Number two
11:27
I think it's prudent to tell your
11:29
spouse . You know , obviously , if
11:31
your marriage is having some issues , you
11:34
may want to discuss it before you
11:36
tell your spouse , like I had , every state's
11:39
different with laws as far as separation
11:41
. I did have a client out
11:44
in California , which is a community property
11:46
state . When we looked at the law out there
11:48
it basically said , yeah
11:50
, if you're already separated , you're not divorced
11:52
, but if you're separated , that's
11:54
the day of separation of assets . So
11:57
I told the person you're
11:59
holding a winning ticket . You likely , if
12:01
you do this right , you know , can keep
12:03
your spouse out , even though you're still legally married
12:06
, but you're not divorced yet , but you're
12:08
separated . So you know
12:10
, I think telling your spouse is still a good thing to do
12:12
I wouldn't tell anyone else . And
12:15
if I did tell someone else , or wanted to tell
12:17
someone , because I wanted to bring them in and
12:19
you know this , that's also a big issue , because
12:21
I had a client who who wanted
12:23
to help his brothers and he
12:25
he said , well , you know , I want to give them
12:27
, you know , five or $10 million each
12:29
. And I said , well , if you give them that kind of money
12:32
, it would be considered a gift and
12:34
it would have gift acts associated with it . So
12:36
maybe if we incorporate them in
12:38
the wind as part of the trust or
12:41
a small percentage , we can get
12:43
them the same money . But before
12:45
we do that let's send out a non-disclosure
12:47
agreement . And so we actually sent out
12:50
a non-disclosure agreement for
12:52
them to sign and send back with
12:54
attorney representation , and
12:56
I called the meeting as to why we were
12:58
meeting , and actually the brothers thought
13:00
that their , their brother , was sick and was dying
13:03
and that's why the meeting was being called . But
13:05
it was really being called to find out how
13:08
stable their relationships were with their
13:10
, with their spouses . Because I insisted
13:12
to say , hey , before before
13:15
we give them money or put them
13:17
on the ticket , let's not surprise
13:19
them with it , because that surprise your
13:21
surprise might be just a
13:23
horror story for them . So when
13:26
we got them both on the phone , one
13:28
had already been separated but didn't tell anyone
13:30
anything about it , and the other one had been
13:32
living apart but never got divorced
13:34
for like 10 years . And so you
13:37
know we had to restructure what we wanted
13:39
to do to get them the money that
13:41
the brother wanted them to have . So
13:44
tell your spouse if your marriage
13:46
is in good shape . You're not separated
13:48
, obviously . But really try not
13:50
tell anyone else . Some people tell their
13:52
adult children . Again , depending
13:55
on the dollar amount , if you went a million dollars or
13:57
two million dollars , probably not
13:59
that big of a deal , but you went a hundred million
14:01
dollars or a billion dollars , it's a big
14:04
deal and we should talk about it first .
14:06
Now , I mentioned , I'm good at keeping secrets
14:08
and the only time that I actually get a lottery
14:10
ticket is when it's like what ? A billion
14:13
dollars ? Because 40 million obviously
14:15
isn't enough . And you know we do those office
14:17
pools . So what happens when you have an office pool
14:19
? So you've got 10 people that have put
14:21
into this lottery ticket and they've just won
14:24
. I may keep it a secret , but what about
14:26
the other nine ? What kind of issue are
14:28
we faced in ?
14:29
Well , there's been lots of litigation
14:31
on these office pools , and
14:34
what I tell people first off is , when
14:36
you're talking about an office pool , the
14:38
word there that's important is cool and
14:42
, as we all know , pools have
14:44
a shallow end and they have a deep end
14:46
, and if you could call it that deep
14:48
end , it could be disastrous . So
14:51
the problem with office pools is there's
14:53
always someone that got left
14:56
off . Or you had been doing
14:58
a lottery pool for a while
15:00
and went on for like 10
15:02
weeks while the jackpot was getting bigger
15:05
, and then one day someone doesn't
15:07
show up to work because they're sick or
15:09
they're out of town on business , and so
15:11
they don't physically put in the money , or someone
15:13
doesn't put in the money for them , and
15:16
so now they're left off . Or
15:18
each drawing
15:20
is that a new office pool ? In other words
15:23
, you buy 20 tickets for the
15:26
office and one
15:28
of the tickets wins $10 . Well , what happened to
15:30
that $10 ? Did that get disseminated to everyone
15:32
50 cents each ? Or did
15:34
they say we're rolling it over , so they
15:36
roll it over and they roll it over , and then someday
15:38
someone doesn't put in their $10
15:41
. And so they're left out , and
15:43
so there's plenty of litigation on
15:46
those issues . Normally , what happens
15:48
is that person that gets left off or
15:50
isn't included that gets angry
15:52
. They will file some
15:55
lawsuit that puts a hold on all the
15:57
funds and so no one gets any of the money
15:59
. They eventually , in almost every case
16:01
that I've seen there's several cases
16:03
that are posted on that , but
16:06
almost always they eventually get
16:08
something in settlement and in
16:10
the meantime everyone didn't
16:12
have access to the money for three years . So
16:14
if you're going to have it off of school
16:16
, have some rules
16:18
, have everyone sign off on it , make
16:21
sure that there's full disclosure of the
16:24
tickets that are bought for that night and
16:26
who's included only , and
16:28
make sure that it's really documented
16:31
. Well , you know , that's
16:33
my only suggestion . I don't like them . I
16:35
think that there's always someone that gets
16:37
left off , that gets hurt , and
16:40
once they get hurt they find an attorney
16:42
, and if there's a hundred million
16:44
dollars sitting out there , you're going to find an attorney
16:46
that will represent you .
16:48
So I think my takeaway is I need to leave a $10
16:50
bill in my drawer just in case I'm absent one
16:52
day and they're going and they're doing a lottery
16:54
pool at the office or and
16:57
or make sure that the rules say that you
16:59
can have a surrogate , but you each
17:01
person has a surrogate to put money into it .
17:03
So that way , if you're absent for that
17:05
day , your surrogate has agreed to
17:07
put in money for you . So that way you're included
17:09
and you do the same for them .
17:11
Wow , it really gets technical . So what
17:13
are some different options for claiming
17:15
the lottery and how do how do they
17:17
each affect your taxes and financial planning
17:20
Also very important and
17:22
Unfortunately I've
17:24
had some of these issues that came up and
17:27
their heartbreaking issue .
17:29
I got a call and not too long ago
17:31
, from a young lady who there
17:33
was a 30 , some million dollar
17:35
lottery in her states that the
17:38
opportunity To claim
17:41
it you know every state has rules and the
17:43
opportunity to claim it after six
17:45
months . It was you're
17:47
out of luck and Because
17:50
she won and because she was so scared
17:52
, she didn't tell anyone and
17:54
she kind of put the ticket away and
17:57
then moved , because you
17:59
know that was her part of her plan is I
18:01
will move first and then I'll
18:04
go in to claim it and get some help
18:06
with it . That's what she was thinking . Because
18:08
of that , the six months went by and
18:11
Then she lost the ticket and
18:13
so there's a 30 million
18:15
dollar lottery win that
18:18
went unclaimed and she was calling
18:21
me to see what can I do and
18:23
unfortunately , most states
18:25
say you need a ticket not not
18:27
every state , but most . For now all
18:29
the states say we need
18:31
to see a winning ticket and you
18:33
need to claim it timely and those
18:35
are basic rules . Now every state has
18:38
different rules about how long you
18:40
have to claim a Mega million Powerball
18:42
or it , one of those scratch off games . So you
18:44
have to look at your state to see
18:46
what the rules are for the individual games
18:48
and then comply , and
18:50
so you know . That's why it's important
18:53
to to act reasonably
18:55
quickly after you notice that you
18:57
have a win , but doesn't have to be done overnight
18:59
and actually Just
19:01
like in a state planning when
19:03
a , a spouse died and I'm
19:05
talking to the surviving spouse and you
19:08
know everyone gives them suggestions
19:10
do this , sell , sell your house , move to
19:12
a smaller house , do this . Do that . I
19:14
always tell clients in the past Let
19:17
the roller coaster come to a stop before
19:19
you try to get out . Okay , and
19:21
the same thing , same thing with with lottery
19:23
. You know , let those initial emotions
19:26
Pass before you
19:28
start acting on it , but don't let it
19:30
go too far . So every
19:32
state has different laws . You have
19:34
to check those things . The
19:36
key also in a lot of states is
19:38
it's many times you have 60 days To
19:41
claim that winning ticket , that Powerball
19:43
ticket or that mega million ticket . You have 60
19:45
days to claim it if you want lump sum
19:48
. If you go beyond 60 days
19:50
, then it's automatically an annuity
19:52
. And what happens is With
19:55
states these days , they can own
19:57
their governments , can only invest in
19:59
certain types of investments
20:02
and Typically a state
20:04
that runs a lot of rates , called an
20:06
enterprise fund . It comes back
20:08
from my auditing days when I did governmental
20:10
audit work my initial early days
20:12
of being a CPA . But
20:14
these Programs that generate
20:17
income , like golf courses and all these things
20:19
, are called enterprise funds within the government
20:21
, and so the investment
20:24
Limitations are typically
20:26
treasuries . So it's important
20:28
to take a look at the treasury rates
20:31
, and most of them use two year or five
20:33
year treasury rates . Today , those
20:35
treasury rates , if you look them up , those
20:37
are like four and a quarter , four and a half
20:39
percent . They may have gotten close to
20:41
five percent in the last year . So
20:43
back in 2020 , 2021
20:46
, those treasury rates were under
20:48
a half a percent , half of one , for
20:50
less that less than half of one percent
20:52
. Now they're four to five percent . So
20:55
those , those treasuries , are what they can invest
20:57
in . So they need , they need to know Okay
21:00
, it's the person taking the lump sum , or do we
21:02
invest this into ? Do annuity to give them
21:04
the 20 or 30 year payout
21:06
, whatever the state laws ? So you
21:09
have a limited period time to make certain decisions
21:11
. You need to act fairly quickly
21:13
, but don't wait too long
21:15
and don't do what that one person did
21:17
that ended up losing 30 plus
21:19
million dollars just because she
21:21
wanted to move and then misplaced
21:24
the ticket and didn't know where it was
21:26
. And yeah , I mean there , she
21:28
was sad she's . Luckily she
21:30
had a lot of faith , luckily she
21:32
, you know , had been in the service
21:35
and experienced a lot of things
21:37
and in her time at serving our country
21:39
. But , yeah , it's still still
21:41
heartbreaking when you hear it . But
21:44
that that that decision between
21:46
the annuity and the and
21:49
the lump sum payout is very key
21:51
and many states you only have 60 days because
21:53
of that treasury rate and the difference
21:55
right now is the amount of lump sum
21:58
. You know , I had a client that won over a billion
22:00
dollars in 2021
22:03
, january of 2021 . So
22:05
their , their payout , their lump sum
22:07
payout of that billion dollar ticket was
22:10
like 776 million
22:12
before tax . Today
22:14
, if someone won a billion dollars , because
22:17
of the interest rates , the treasuries being where
22:19
they are and inflation affecting
22:21
basically the interest rates , that
22:23
payout might only be $480
22:26
million . So difference between 780 and
22:28
480 is Just
22:30
a couple of points of interest rates . So
22:33
, obviously , taking a look at your options
22:36
Again , bringing someone
22:38
in with some experience , one-time
22:40
opportunity to do this right . Make
22:43
the most of that opportunity . Yeah , I tell people
22:45
all time . You know there's a lot of good
22:47
quarterbacks that get their teams to the
22:49
to the Super Bowl , but who
22:51
do you want Quarterbacking your team
22:53
? Do you want a Tom Brady ? Do you want a A
22:56
, a Mahomes quarterback unit
22:58
? Or do you want , like a Marcus Mario to
23:00
, who was a Heisman trophy winner but
23:02
hasn't gotten his team ever to a
23:04
Super Bowl ? So you get this one opportunity . You
23:06
want to make sure you put the right team together and
23:09
act with a lot of . You know
23:11
these are . These are decisions that the average
23:13
person that buys a ticket has
23:15
no idea of and you know All
23:17
they start seeing is okay , I can
23:20
have a new house , I can have bill as . I can fly
23:22
anywhere I can . I can help out charities
23:24
. You know all these things change after
23:27
they win . I've had clients that
23:29
have one major amounts of money
23:31
and , unfortunately , the way we do
23:33
it being anonymously , they
23:35
actually have to live kind of like a double
23:37
life . You know I have . I have a client that loves
23:40
to play golf and plays golf almost
23:42
every day , but he had to join
23:45
two country clubs . He , you know he's retired . He
23:47
joined the one exclusive country club that
23:49
only he goes to when he wants to really
23:51
enjoy himself and if his friends come
23:54
in town he goes to , you know
23:56
, and every day , every day person's country
23:58
club and plays there , because
24:00
he doesn't want some friends , even though that he
24:03
won a couple million dollars . So again
24:05
, it could be a very sad life
24:07
, it could be a very quiet life , but
24:10
whatever you do , you want to make sure that
24:12
you have a life and I think claiming anonymously
24:15
and putting a plan together is really important
24:17
than that . I've probably over answered your question
24:19
, I'm not sure .
24:20
So no , you did just fine . So
24:22
what are some common mistakes that lottery winners often
24:25
make , and how can they avoid falling into
24:27
those traps ?
24:28
Well , I think people have a tendency
24:30
, when they know that they won , say
24:32
and I've seen it on TV when
24:35
they talk to people , hey , if you win
24:37
, what are you going to do with the money ? Well
24:39
, they all say , well , I'm going to keep a third
24:41
, I'm going to give a third to my family , I'm going
24:44
to give a third to charities
24:46
or to my church . And
24:48
it's sad because when I've talked
24:51
to people like that after
24:53
they won and we start the process , they
24:56
have a tendency to say , ok , well
24:58
, maybe I don't want to give that much to my family
25:00
, maybe I'm not giving that much to charity . We
25:03
start talking about what are the options
25:06
to take care of charity . There's
25:08
many different ways that you can do charity . A
25:10
lot of these people think they're going to set up a foundation
25:12
and when I tell them that , I say
25:14
well , the foundation requires a
25:17
lot of work , it requires effort , it
25:19
requires people working in a foundation
25:21
, family members , or are you going to do this
25:23
? No , I don't want to do it . I just want to give
25:25
money to it , but I want my family to run it and
25:28
control it . Well , it requires requires
25:30
tax returns , it requires someone
25:33
taking a look at the investments . It requires a
25:35
distribution every year of so much this
25:38
percentage . And so a lot of
25:40
people , I think they start talking
25:42
this game of what they're going to do
25:44
and they get so far ahead of themselves
25:47
that they don't know how to come back
25:49
from it . And so
25:51
then they find themselves victims of
25:53
their own exuberance and
25:55
they just say , ok , well , I'm going
25:57
to do this , I'm going to do this , and then , before you
25:59
know it , they've not
26:02
put a plan together , they've not followed that
26:04
plan and they find themselves in
26:07
a financial position that they didn't expect
26:09
and they think money is going to get them
26:11
out of it . Well , a lot of times
26:13
money doesn't fix things , and
26:15
I learned that through my proxy
26:18
law with a couple of law firms that wanted
26:20
to do things a certain way and I objected
26:23
to it and they ended up after I left
26:25
going the wrong
26:27
way and ended up disseminating
26:29
. So I
26:31
think if someone was
26:33
to follow a proper plan
26:35
, if they win over $10
26:38
million or so , if they can
26:40
live with an ability
26:42
to spend 3% to 4%
26:44
and not touch the principal
26:46
, I think that they would be living a
26:48
nice life . If they start spending more than
26:51
3% or 4% , I
26:53
think they're going to find themselves in a difficult
26:55
position at some time in the future because they're
26:58
overspending . And the other thing I tell people is
27:00
no major decisions
27:02
financially for six months
27:04
. Let's get through the first six months
27:06
and see where we are . And
27:09
, yes , you can pay off your mortgage . Yes
27:11
, you can get yourself a new car I'm okay with that
27:13
but nothing else . Maybe pay
27:15
off a couple of credit cards if
27:17
you have them , but do nothing else for
27:19
six months . No major purchases
27:21
, no major gifts to anyone . Let's
27:24
six months go by and see where we're at and
27:27
then after that you can
27:29
probably put a plan together for the next year
27:31
and do a lot better . So
27:33
I think just that over
27:36
exuberance , sometimes thinking
27:38
that you're multimillionaire , that you can
27:40
do everything and change your life , I
27:42
think really gets people in trouble . So
27:45
again , stay with the plan . Let's
27:47
go six months , no major purchases . Let's
27:50
get on a plan that we're spending 3%
27:52
or 4% of the winnings every year because hopefully
27:55
the investments there conservatively
27:57
to get them that 3% or 4% , and
27:59
at the end of the year it's like
28:02
the year went by and I
28:04
still have all my money and I'm in good shape
28:06
because I've learned .
28:08
Has it been difficult to get your clients to
28:10
agree to that six month rule ? Because we
28:12
have water cooler conversations and that's
28:14
all people talk about is I'm going to go buy a new house
28:16
, I'm going to buy a jet , I'm going to buy a car , I'm
28:19
going to buy this and that . So to have to restrain
28:21
yourself for six months just seems almost
28:24
outrageous . So is that a pretty easy task
28:27
, or is it something that makes your job a little bit more
28:29
difficult to keep them reined in
28:31
and holding on to that money for that time
28:33
period ?
28:34
You know , a lot of it has to do with the amount of money
28:36
that they want . Someone wins a couple
28:38
hundred billion dollars . It's going to be real
28:40
hard for me to convince them that
28:42
it might be a good idea to stay at their job . So
28:46
a lot of people say , well , I'm going
28:48
to quit . Or I've
28:50
had people that have won 500 million that
28:52
say I love my job , I'm going to stay at my job
28:54
. And I'll tell them listen , I
28:57
give it three months , tops two months likely
28:59
that you're going to continue to go to work
29:01
and you're going to listen to what your boss
29:03
said to do . Then you're going to look at your bank account
29:05
and say I ain't listening to him anymore and
29:08
I'm out of here . It's life
29:10
. But in the old days if someone
29:12
won a million or two million dollars , that's
29:15
a nice amount of money . That's
29:17
not life changing and you know , we know , we
29:20
know it might need . You might need in
29:22
most states four to
29:24
five million dollars just to retire
29:26
a little bit at this point in time in
29:28
a state of our country right now . But
29:31
I think you win a million or two million dollars
29:33
If you , if you quit your
29:35
job , you lose healthcare benefits
29:38
. Well , if you have a major medical problem
29:40
and you don't have health insurance , today , you
29:42
might find yourself in a very difficult situation
29:45
that you have a million dollars in
29:47
the bank and it's going to go to your medical bills
29:49
within six months , and then
29:51
what do you do ? You quit your job . So it
29:54
depends on the amount of money and
29:56
again , you have to treat that two million dollar
29:59
winner different than the hundred million dollar winner . The
30:01
hundred million dollar has more cushion
30:04
but that's why they need a different
30:06
type of plan than that two million dollar winner , that
30:09
two million dollar winner . The plan for them is
30:11
a lot simpler . It's kind of like all
30:13
right , I have , I have funded my , my
30:16
IRA or my 401k in advance
30:18
, essentially , but I'm not going to touch that
30:20
until I'm retired at the age
30:22
of 65 or 70 . And then I
30:24
have a nice , comfortable retirement a
30:26
hundred million dollar winner . They can retire that
30:29
next week . So again , it depends
30:31
on the amount and it's
30:33
all part of putting that plan together . And
30:35
I tell people listen , I'm here for
30:38
you , I will help you beyond that
30:40
claiming period . But you
30:42
know we need to make sure that
30:44
you're following the plan . The plan worked
30:46
to claim the money . The plan worked
30:48
to get you established and to get your family
30:51
in a good , a good state . Let's
30:53
continue with the plan . Let's not let's not change
30:55
, let's not modify it . I mean , we can modify it to
30:57
some extent , but let's take a look at
30:59
like I just had a client not too long
31:01
ago with a financial consultant that we met
31:03
with and the client
31:05
made $9 million in income
31:08
that year $9 million . And
31:10
then we looked at the whole thing of
31:12
what they spent and they spent $4
31:14
million . They lived a comfortable life
31:16
the whole year , did everything they wanted to do , travel
31:19
everything . They spent $4 million . So
31:21
they made $9 million . They
31:24
spent $5 million of income , left Income
31:27
Forget about the fact that the
31:29
portfolio is still there and
31:31
so we said , okay , is
31:33
there something else that we want to do ? Is there something
31:36
now that we want to change in our life ? Maybe
31:39
it's time to start flying private
31:42
planes , as opposed to getting an airplane
31:44
to fly in first class . Maybe we should
31:46
try that for a year to see if that was
31:48
a good thing or a bad thing . Again
31:51
, having that plan , following up
31:53
on that plan , seeing the results
31:55
of that plan every six months or
31:57
year at a time is extremely
31:59
important to having someone live their life comfortably
32:02
. And again , it all comes down to
32:04
anonymity . As far as I'm concerned . If you're
32:06
anonymous and know those who you are , you
32:09
have less people asking for money . You have less
32:11
people asking for donations . I've
32:13
had clients who , because I'm their
32:15
representative , I get the letters . And
32:18
I'll get a letter from someone out west
32:20
that says hey , I need this money
32:22
for my family . I lost
32:24
my job . I did this . It's a handwritten
32:27
letter . It tugs at your heart
32:29
. You want to help out . And
32:32
so I'll talk to the client and go hey , listen , I got this letter
32:34
from this person . You're probably not going to want to respond
32:36
to it , but this is what it said . And
32:38
then , a week later , a person sends the same
32:40
handwritten letter to me , addressed
32:43
to them , to the winners . But
32:45
I get it and it says well
32:47
, you didn't answer my request , so
32:49
I'm going to take my life , I'm
32:51
going to kill myself because I have nothing to live
32:54
for , and that's
32:56
what people have to live with as winners . They
32:58
get these types of requests from people
33:00
and it's hard to say no , and
33:02
so you don't know if they're real , you don't
33:04
know if they're made up , if it's a scam , people
33:07
become targets , and so you have to
33:09
have someone that shields you from that , and
33:11
that's kind of like what my practices were
33:14
built on .
33:15
So I think the burning question is how
33:17
can you really remain anonymous ? Because
33:19
I know there are some states , such as Louisiana , where
33:22
they will . You know they claim that
33:24
they're required to put your name out there , to publish
33:26
your name . I know some states , you know they allow
33:28
you to stay in the incognito , but in Louisiana
33:30
, if I won the lottery , I would
33:32
want to be anonymous . I would want to be , you
33:35
know , keep that information a secret . So
33:37
how would you be able to help me with that ?
33:39
Well , again , every state has different
33:41
rules and obligation and
33:44
the question really for the state
33:46
is do they have to be transparent
33:48
because of the laws of that state ? And
33:50
in some states it's written into the law
33:52
that you cannot claim
33:55
a lottery as a
33:57
trust or a limited liability
33:59
company or some form of entity . They do
34:02
not allow it . They say that the
34:04
winner must be a natural person
34:06
natural person and that's what it
34:08
says . And you know , obviously
34:10
, if you win a lot of money it's
34:13
a different situation and I always tell people
34:15
that , even in those states where
34:17
it says you have to be disclosed as a
34:19
natural person , let's see if
34:21
we can take some steps to get around that
34:23
. You know , sometimes I don't
34:25
like to , but sometimes I like to put
34:27
a plan together that includes bringing
34:30
in a litigation
34:32
person , a litigation attorney
34:34
, to help us go through the
34:36
administrative law provisions to
34:39
say how important it is for the individual
34:41
to be anonymous . Like , let's
34:43
say , I had someone that won and
34:45
they were in their field
34:48
of what they did and they were
34:50
a deputy
34:53
at a prison , for lack of better
34:55
. You know they were there . Well , the last
34:57
thing you want for that person's safety is
34:59
to disclose that they were a lottery
35:01
winner . When they have to go into
35:03
a prison on a regular basis or they're in law enforcement
35:06
because they could be compromised
35:09
, so for their own safety and the safety of the public
35:11
, you may say , hey
35:13
, this situation is different and
35:17
this is why we need to keep the person anonymous
35:19
. You know , there's no reason that they can't
35:21
play the lottery , but so you have to
35:23
look at the individual circumstances of the individual
35:26
. The other thing is I'm
35:29
looking right now at your Louisiana
35:31
claim form . It's a one-page claim form and
35:34
in the claim form about midway down it says
35:37
I am claiming for a group
35:39
and it says attached form 5754
35:41
. Well , 5754 is an
35:44
IRS tax form and if you
35:46
pull it up and look at it , it basically says
35:48
this person is
35:50
claiming it or this entity might be claiming
35:52
it , but the winners are
35:54
really these people . So that's an IRS form and
35:58
so I think even in those states
36:00
that require the
36:02
person to be a natural
36:04
person that claims it , I believe that there's
36:06
ways to get around that to
36:09
protect at least most
36:11
of the people Like I typically
36:13
act as a representative of the group because
36:15
I am a natural person . So
36:17
I have a document put together for
36:20
the group sign that says
36:22
Kurt is the representative
36:24
of this group and he will claim this for
36:27
us . So I'll
36:29
be the person that will be identified to
36:31
protect the other people in the group
36:33
, because normally says
36:35
only the person that
36:38
gets paid for the group
36:40
or for the trust of the LLC that has to
36:42
be disclosed . So I believe
36:44
that there's ways around . I don't want
36:46
to say around that we're circumventing
36:48
the rules , because we're not . We're trying to play
36:50
within the rules . And this is where
36:52
I always like working with every
36:55
state lottery has a lottery
36:57
attorney who they
36:59
make decisions for the lottery . So as
37:01
the attorney for the group or the attorney for the
37:04
trust , I reach out to that person and say
37:06
listen , this is what we would like to do
37:08
, what are your thoughts on it ? Get
37:10
them involved as we put the plan
37:12
together and , if need be
37:14
, if I can't work
37:16
an agreement out with that person again
37:19
, I'm not going to worry about it . It's a million dollars
37:21
. I'm going to tell the client hey , you don't need to go through
37:23
all these hoops . Just you know the law is what the
37:25
law is . Just go ahead and claim it . But if it's a hundred
37:27
million dollars or billion dollars , it's
37:30
worth taking some extra time to
37:32
see what we can do to make
37:34
sure everyone is okay with our
37:36
plan . In that particular case
37:38
, I might even get the
37:41
litigation attorney to go with me and
37:43
meet with the attorney general's office who
37:45
the attorney that's in charge of lottery and
37:48
gaming to see if we can't get
37:50
them to agree to our plan . And I've
37:52
done that before with certain states to
37:54
keep people anonymous Because , again
37:56
, anonymity is
37:58
the key . Being the plan together to protect
38:00
anonymity is the follow-up .
38:03
Well , as we get ready to wrap up , are there any
38:05
reliable resources or support
38:07
networks that can help individuals navigate
38:10
into this new potential lifestyle
38:12
?
38:13
Yeah , you know , I think that they're . What
38:16
people don't understand is
38:18
the lottery websites that
38:20
they live in they buy their tickets is
38:22
really have some great , great
38:24
materials , but they're hidden , you know . You
38:26
just have to find them . You know , obviously
38:29
, when you look at someone and
38:32
I happen to look at your laws there because
38:34
I knew we were going to be talking Louisiana
38:37
, for instance , has a four and a quarter state
38:39
income tax . Okay , that's four and a quarter . It
38:41
may not seem like a lot , but when you start
38:43
acting on a billion dollars or
38:45
a hundred million dollars , that's a lot of money . That
38:49
would pay the attorney fee . I'm joking . But
38:51
basically , if you're
38:53
in a border area and
38:56
you have the choice of do I go someplace
38:58
like Texas that
39:00
may have there may be income tax free
39:02
to buy my ticket , or do I cross
39:04
the border and go into Florida where
39:07
it's income tax free ? Should
39:09
I try to be buying my tickets there when I get the option
39:11
? Probably that's the number one
39:14
thing , because you don't have to be
39:16
a member of that
39:18
state to buy a lottery ticket . You could be passing
39:20
through them . Buy a lottery ticket , be a winner . So
39:23
you're based on the laws of
39:26
where you're claiming it at , but
39:28
you're also based on the laws of where
39:30
the ticket winning ticket was purchased , so you
39:32
can save some money doing that . But
39:35
look at the lottery website . There's
39:37
always resources . There's always something
39:39
called resources . Every
39:43
state's lottery website has this information
39:45
on it resources or they have
39:47
questions . Go through
39:49
those things . Read through them , because
39:51
that's what I do . That's the first thing I do
39:53
when someone calls me from a state . I pull up their website
39:56
. Go through all these resources
39:58
. Try to look at the lottery act . Every
40:00
state has a lottery set of rules and acts
40:02
and procedures and they're
40:05
hidden in these websites
40:07
, and so you can go there and
40:10
get a lot of information . Outside
40:12
of that , there's always things that
40:15
are written , and not too long ago
40:17
I had a gentleman interview
40:19
me and I was fascinated
40:21
because I was just like when he called
40:23
me , he said , hey , I'm writing a book on
40:25
the lottery and I want to include
40:28
a lot of different topics , but
40:30
he was a hockey
40:33
player , I guess growing up , and so sports
40:35
was important to him . But he wrote this
40:37
book and he sent me a copy of it
40:39
, and while there's a whole chapter
40:41
in the book that's devoted
40:43
to things that I
40:45
discussed with him , which was kind of cool . I
40:48
really , when I went through the book , I found the book
40:50
to be a very helpful
40:53
book in understanding not
40:55
only what the individuals
40:57
go through and some of their
40:59
emotions , but also what
41:01
the states also go
41:04
through as well . And
41:06
so the name of this book is called Winning Numbers
41:08
and it's called the Deep Dive into
41:10
the Lottery and Luck . The paperback I think
41:12
you can get it on Amazon , and
41:14
the author is this guy , jeff Kopetus
41:16
, c-o-p-e-t-a-s . Again
41:19
, that book I thought was really , really
41:21
good . There's a lot of stuff out
41:23
there with the states because
41:26
these scratch-off games . They're
41:28
so confusing for people . I
41:30
get so many calls saying hey , I
41:33
thought I had a winner , but the state's saying I don't
41:35
. I want to have a class action suit , I
41:37
want to sue the lottery . I've played
41:39
for six months and I haven't won . Or
41:41
I bought 10 tickets in a row and none of the tickets
41:44
were winners and it says one out of every five
41:46
tickets and everyone wants to sue the lottery
41:48
, sue the lottery . So
41:50
there's a lot of documentation
41:53
out there for people to read
41:55
up on lawsuits against the lottery
41:57
or whistleblowers . But I think Jeff's book
41:59
did a great job of talking about it . But
42:02
other than the actual lottery act
42:05
and the website and that book , I think
42:07
looking at what your options
42:09
are for past winners
42:12
, looking what did a past
42:14
winner in my state do and
42:16
is there any follow-up on
42:18
their situation Were they disclosed
42:20
? Were they not disclosed Just taking
42:22
a look at the history of your state with
42:25
former winners , I think it's also pretty good .
42:27
Some really good information and , of course , your expertise
42:29
is not just limited to lottery winnings . You
42:32
may inherit money . It could be
42:34
from gambling . There are lots of different sources
42:36
that you can help individuals with . So how
42:38
can our listeners reach you if they do
42:40
come into some sudden wealth and they want somebody
42:43
on their side that can help them navigate
42:45
this winning-win fall ?
42:47
Yeah , that was a
42:49
good point that we really didn't discuss a lot about
42:51
. There's different types of sudden wealth
42:53
and that's
42:55
actually important . When someone
42:57
wins or comes into money , versus
42:59
someone that inherits money
43:01
, it's a different mindset . When
43:05
you win a lottery , you're a little bit more
43:07
apt to say well , it's free money
43:09
. If you have someone that passed
43:11
away that gave you money , you may say
43:13
this is more of a savings . Your
43:16
mindset's a little bit different . I lost someone
43:18
to get this money . I lost a
43:20
family member , so I'm going to be a
43:22
little bit more responsible for this . As opposed to
43:24
oh , the lottery , that's just free money . Or
43:27
someone that sells a business and has a whole bunch
43:29
of money . Their mindset is okay
43:31
, I worked all my life , I
43:34
earned this . I want to still dabble
43:36
in gains and losses and the
43:39
business opportunities . So
43:41
their investment decisions are different , their
43:43
mind frame is different and
43:45
the investment people that work with them need
43:48
to understand that and treat them differently , because
43:50
a lot of these investment groups that come
43:52
into helping these people with large amounts
43:55
they just think , okay , well , we need to generate
43:57
losses to go with the gain . And
44:00
it drives me crazy because
44:02
if I have a client that has $100
44:05
million , I might say hey , listen , you don't
44:07
have to take any risk whatsoever , you'll
44:09
always have your $100 million Live off of
44:11
just basic , basic interests . Do
44:13
that and you'll
44:15
never go through this money . So
44:18
it's a different mind frame and
44:21
their abilities to want to spend
44:23
are different . It's always good
44:25
to make sure you bring someone in with experience
44:27
or the person . You might have
44:29
a really good relationship with an attorney in your
44:31
area and say this is the attorney
44:33
that's going to represent me , but I'm going to tell
44:35
him or her I want to bring in this other
44:38
attorney to be part of our team to
44:40
really help us through the process , and I've done that as
44:42
well . So the way to get
44:44
a hold of me is basically
44:46
obviously , I still have my legal website
44:48
out there , which is curteatpenousislawcom
44:52
P-A-N-O-U-S-E-S . My last name
44:54
, law L-A-W dot com
44:56
. That's one way . But I also
44:58
have a website out there really devoted
45:00
to the lottery , and it's lotterylawyercpacom
45:06
all one word , lotterylawyercpacom
45:08
and that's the one where I really focus
45:10
in on the lottery and what
45:12
I've done in the past and some different
45:14
options for people to help them through the process
45:17
.
45:18
Well , I definitely want to thank you
45:20
. This has been some really good information . You gave me
45:22
a lot to think about , even though I don't buy a lot of lottery
45:24
tickets . So I want to thank you for sharing your invaluable
45:27
information and your expertise
45:29
. And we'll have to have you come back because , of course , there's
45:31
so much more to talk about , like you said , if
45:33
you come into wealth , and there's
45:35
so many other topics to talk about , especially prizes
45:38
. People don't realize that if they win a prize , that there's
45:40
money involved and that nothing in life is
45:42
really free . So we'll have to have you come back . Thank
45:44
you again , Kurt . Thank you so much
45:46
. Lottery
45:52
scams are unfortunately common and scammers
45:54
often target individuals who have recently
45:56
won or are seeking to win the lottery . Here
45:59
are a couple of tips to help you avoid falling
46:01
victim to a lottery scam . First
46:03
of all , verify the legitimacy . Only
46:06
participate in lotteries run by legitimate
46:08
organizations . Beware
46:10
of unsolicited communications . Be
46:13
cautious of emails , letters , phone calls
46:15
, texts claiming that you've won the lottery , especially
46:18
if you've never even entered or bought
46:20
a ticket . Don't pay
46:22
any upfront fees . Legitimate
46:24
lotteries do not require you to pay upfront fees
46:26
. That is kind of key . It's kind of
46:28
you know if it sounds too good to be
46:31
true . It probably is . And
46:33
then finally check out neighborsfcuorg
46:36
or slash financial education to learn
46:38
more on how to use the money you have , make
46:40
the money you need and save the money you want
46:42
.
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